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#1 jackman51

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:06 PM

Can other investigators use Patrice's Research Materials in the same manner as one of her clues?

 

Thus could Silas use three of Patrice's clues to complete his personal story and could one of them be Research Materials?

 

I don't have all the expansions but I think I have heard tales of two gates being opened by a single mythos card (?) but if so let's hypothetically say there are four investigators playing a game with six gates already open when this double gate card appears. If Mandy was using her Personnal story and there were already 4 clues on her PS card and there were 5 Elder Signs on the board and the first Gate of the Mythos card appeared at a sealed gate location (thus completing Mandy's PS) but the other gate opening appeared at a non-sealed location (thus immediately awakening the AO) then would Mandy be able to seal it--or let's say even a different open gate on the board--and have the investigators immediately win. Or does the AO awaken first?

 

A lot of "ifs" I know, but   seems like a potential timing conflict. Course if there are no such double gate cards the as Gilder Radner on SNL used to say "Nevermind"!



#2 Dr.Faust

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:39 PM

I don't think so, no. Clue tokens are Clue tokens, Items are Items.


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#3 Schwaig

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:40 AM

The mythos cards with two opening gates are existent and are found in the 'Lurker' expansion.

 

Regarding your question: The FAQ only states, that both gates are handled with in the 'Open Gate and Spawn Monsters' step.

 

 

Q: When resolving Mythos cards that open 2 gates but do not add doom tokens to the doom track, do the gates open during the Open Gate and Spawn Monster step or the Activate Mythos step, since the gates are mentioned in the Headline text?

A: Both gates open at the beginning of the Mythos Phase as usual. The Headline text is there to remind players that, in the case of this card, do not add doom tokens to the doom track during the Open Gate and Spawn Monsters step.

 

So I would say, if the first gate is prevented, the effects of mandy's ps would occur immediately and therefore allow you to seal another gate (but not the second gate from the card because that one hasn't opened allready). 

This also allows the question which gate would be the 'first' gate. I would suggest the top one, but cannot give any reason except for always going from top to bottom which does not actually happen with mythos cards, so it does not really count.

 

I would play it against the usual 'in doubt always against the investigators' because other FAQ-entries and questions did show us, that there are never events, that occur simultaneously. Though you could still say: The gate that does more damage to the investigators opens first. But that is quite random, I think.


Edited by Schwaig, 05 October 2013 - 01:40 AM.

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#4 dj2.0

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:48 AM

As far as Patrice goes she is potent enough already without buff, so because there has been no ruling otherwise, i say no.
As for Mandy, though, I'm gonna say yes, basically because your question is about whether double gates open simultaneously or individually, and simultaneous openings raise too many complications. One at a time then, which means Mandy gets a break.
Back to Patrice - after a while you might consider restricting her ability so it only works for skill checks as the strategy of using her clues for sealing is very exploitable and can make the game too easy.
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#5 Julia

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:58 AM

Patrice: the point is Research Materials says "Discard Research Materials instead of spending 1 clue token". In order to be able to discard an item, you must be the active player, so it must be Patrice's turn in order to use it.

 

Additionally, Patrice's special ability says: "Any Phase: Patrice may allow the other investigators to spend her Clue tokens, even if they are not in the same location or world". It doesn't say "other investigators may use Patrice's items".

 

So, even if Research Materials allows you a sort of "free clue", you may not have another investigator use it. For the same reasons, if Patrice had Mythos Lore or Granny Orne, you'd not be allowed to exhaust them in her place


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#6 Julia

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

As for your Mandy question... I'd say it's a question of timing, very similar to the notorious Wendy's question about her PS (FAQ, pag. 30):

 

Q: If Wendy Adams uses her Elder Sign (Unique Item) [AH] to place the third seal on the board, does she pass or fail her Personal Story [IH]?
A: She may choose to either pass or fail, although players will probably prefer that she passes.

 

I'd dare to say here it's a similar issue, so that you have to know what happens first. I'd go with a First Player decision, which probably means you win the game.


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#7 jackman51

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:55 AM

Well the concern I had was this notion of "no interrupts in AH" as I have read in other posts about other issues. Therefore one could argue that the Mythos card would have to be resolved fully before Mandy could use her ability which in this above example would be too late to stop the AO from awakening. On the other hand the word "immediately" seems like a clear interrupt mechanism. So sometimes interrupts sometimes not apparently :wacko:

 

I more or less like your argument Julia on Patrice needing to be the one to spend her Research Materials but I also do not feel the investigators are technically spending her clue tokens either--it seems to me that she has somehow communicated her clue information to the others who use it themselves. If that is reasonable then certainly the same should apply to the RM.  Sure the RM are not clues per se but the card says you can spend it as if it were-- IDK. Don't know quite yet where I stand here. But I certainly do not want it to be a first player decision either.

 

I can extrapolate then that you would not allow the investigators to use her RM to help another investigator seal an open gate?


Edited by jackman51, 05 October 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#8 Julia

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

I can extrapolate then that you would not allow the investigators to use her RM to help seal another investigator seal an open gate?

 

Why not? You can trade items, RM is an item, so Investigator A can enter the location where the gate and Investigator B are, give him RM and move away (if he has enough MP and so on)

 

Let's go geekier on the RM then. Patrice's ability says: "Patrice may allow the other investigators to spend her Clue tokens, even if they are not in the same location or world"

 

Is it RM a clue token? No, it's an item. A striclty reading of her ability clearly disallows to use RM.

Additionally: are investigators allowed to use Patrice's items? No again. You can't use her Carcosan Page, you can't use her Find Gate, you can't use her Press Pass, you can't use her Research Materials.

 

Additionally, RM says: "Discard Research Materials instead of spending 1 clue token". So, when using RM you do not spend clues, you perform an action that it's like spending clues, but it is not. Patrice's ability allows you to spend her clues, not to perform actions you can do instead of spending clues.


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#9 jackman51

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:48 AM

No issue on actually giving the RM physically to another investigator.

 

I guess it seems to me that RM, unlike the other items you cited,  are clue-like. She could have given the others the info on the RM IDK maybe with her Walkie-Talkie? :P  But okay I'll buy the argument that RM is not identical to spending a clue. So no RM for other investigator's unless given to them physically. Feels right anyhow and yeah Patrice is powerful enough already.

 

The Mandy timing issue is more of a concern even if it won't likely happen.


Edited by jackman51, 05 October 2013 - 09:55 AM.

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#10 Julia

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

Agreed, it could be an interesting thing to debate, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever passed Mandy's PS... regardless of this, the described case is really, really, really unlikely to happen


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#11 jackman51

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:21 AM

Not likely true dat.  I think I had 3 clues once on her card. But I could see this debate coming up on another issue as well. Are interrupts allowed or should an action be resolved in it's entirety first?


Edited by jackman51, 05 October 2013 - 10:33 AM.


#12 Julia

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

Care to make an example?


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#13 jackman51

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:32 AM

Course an old fart like me can't think of one atm but I will post one here when I come up with one in a game.



#14 Schwaig

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:54 PM

We had Mandy`s PS done once. Was a game with early seals on Woods and Square.


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#15 jackman51

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

D you remember how many turns that was?



#16 Schwaig

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

About 16 turns in total maybe. A very good start and a slow midgame with no threats (due to not using Innsmouth in this game).



#17 Dr.Faust

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

About 16 turns in total maybe. A very good start and a slow midgame with no threats (due to not using Innsmouth in this game).

 

XD I love how the only way to have a legitimate threat is via Innsmouth!


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#18 jackman51

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:54 AM

Well I can't speak to that but I often see Innsmouth rated as the toughest expansion to win.


Edited by jackman51, 06 October 2013 - 12:26 PM.


#19 Wolfgar

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:45 PM

We have passed Mandy's PS in our game before.



#20 ceridan13

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:03 AM

Concerning the initial question about Mandy. I am new to Arkham and may interpret the situation wrong, but it seems to me you should definately win the game in this case. Why? Well, the last page of the Rulebook under the Timing Conflicts header goes like this:
If two or more game effects happen simultaneously, the players choose the order in which they occur. If the players cannot agree, the first player decides.
So yeah, you can choose Mandy's PS ability to resolve first...

Edited by ceridan13, 11 December 2013 - 12:06 AM.





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