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Sweep + Reach


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#1 Cursain

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 04:16 PM

I need a rule clarification.

 

In the image below, who would be hit if the giant used his sweep action?  Remember, Giants have Reach too.

 

https://www.dropbox....p and Reach.png

 

Thanks for responding.  I checked Google to find the answer, but just found Decent 1 rulings.

 

-Cursain



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:22 PM

Everyone except Hero 3 would be hit.  Note that this includes the skeleton; Sweep affects all figures in range and LoS.

 

Hero 3 is only saved because the giant doesn't have Line of Sight to him.



#3 rugal

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Everyone except Hero 3 would be hit.  Note that this includes the skeleton; Sweep affects all figures in range and LoS.

 

Hero 3 is only saved because the giant doesn't have Line of Sight to him.

 

Looks like you're wrong

"sweep : perform an attack. This attack affects each figures within range of this monster's attack"

So, i would say all figures of the exemple are affected, skeleton also.


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#4 Steve-O

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:10 PM

Looks like you're wrong

"sweep : perform an attack. This attack affects each figures within range of this monster's attack"

So, i would say all figures of the exemple are affected, skeleton also.

 

Am I now?  Not according to the unofficial FAQ over on BGG.

 

"-- Sweep

Q: Does sweep affect all figures in range or is line of sight required also?

A: Sweep requires line of sight to the target."

 

Perhaps you're thinking of the ruling that says abilities don't require LoS unless they explicitly say they do.  That is true, in general.  However, Sweep says to "perform an attack" that affects all figures in range.  Attacks, per the rules on page 12, require Line of Sight.


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#5 rugal

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:37 AM

As long as it's unofficial, i'm not sure about it.

 

logically, the attack would affect all figure.
Maybe it needed to question FFG, should i do it ?



#6 Robin

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:31 AM

What would lead you to ignore the Line of Sight requirement for an attack?
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#7 rugal

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:34 AM

because of the wording


Edited by rugal, 05 October 2013 - 08:34 AM.


#8 Robin

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:36 AM

The wording gives no exception to the LOS requirement (no more than, say, the requirement of not rolling an X).
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#9 Steve-O

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:22 AM

As long as it's unofficial, i'm not sure about it.

 

logically, the attack would affect all figure.
Maybe it needed to question FFG, should i do it ?

 

You're always free to contact FFG yourself, of course, if you like.

 

Mind you, the answers in the unofficial FAQ all come from FFG employees, based on questions sent in by fans just like you.  The only reason its considered "unofficial" is because it isn't included in the actual FAQ pdf (as yet.)


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#10 RagsMckay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:30 AM

:::Varriant from UOF on BGG:::

 

To me sweep is more of an area of affect type attack like blast. I don't feel that blast needs LOS and therfore I feel that Sweep does not need LOS either. You only make one attack that affects multiple targets.

 

I know this goes aggainst the unoficial faq on board game geeks, hence the header. This is just my opinion and you play the way you need to.


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I die...A lot.


#11 Silverhelm

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:51 AM

:::Varriant from UOF on BGG:::
 
To me sweep is more of an area of affect type attack like blast. I don't feel that blast needs LOS and therfore I feel that Sweep does not need LOS either. You only make one attack that affects multiple targets.
 
I know this goes aggainst the unoficial faq on board game geeks, hence the header. This is just my opinion and you play the way you need to.


Sweep isn't AOE? Well that's just silly! I don't have anything that can sweep but if I did I'm sure we all agree its AOE.

#12 centralx

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:55 AM

I am in the camp that LoS is needed for an attack. The difference with the Blast comment is Blast only needs LoS on the first target after that the effects take over. You can't reach attack something that you can not see. 



#13 RagsMckay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:02 AM

I disagree,

 

If I have three people stand in a line: 1 2 3

 

If 1 swings a long pole at 2 and the pole is long enough to hit 3. Well 3 will be hit. It didn't matter if 1 saw him or not. Sweep isn't a targeting attack. It is an area of affect.

 

Again this is all my opinion.


I die...A lot.


#14 rugal

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

I disagree,

 

If I have three people stand in a line: 1 2 3

 

If 1 swings a long pole at 2 and the pole is long enough to hit 3. Well 3 will be hit. It didn't matter if 1 saw him or not. Sweep isn't a targeting attack. It is an area of affect.

 

Again this is all my opinion.

same idea here



#15 Robin

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

This is how I reason, after the rules (rather than after any idea of "reality", which is void within a rules application debate) :

 

1) Reach attack requires LOS.*

See p. 13 : "The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a figure up to two spaces away, rather than only adjacent spaces. The target still needs to be in line of sight."

 

2) In the case of Sweep, the only non adjacent figures that can be attacked are attacked by the giant's Reach ability.

 

3) So LOS is necessary for Sweep to affect one of its targets. No need to repeat what is already explained about Reach in the rules.

 

* BTW, the "pole" idea given by RagsMckay does not fit the reach rule - so it cannot apply to the Sweep rule either.


Edited by Robin, 07 October 2013 - 01:19 PM.

An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#16 RagsMckay

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:13 PM

This is how I reason, after the rules (rather than after any idea of "reality", which is void within a rules application debate) :

 

1) Reach attack requires LOS.*

See p. 13 : "The Reach keyword allows the figure to use a Melee attack to target a figure up to two spaces away, rather than only adjacent spaces. The target still needs to be in line of sight."

 

2) In the case of Sweep, the only non adjacent figures that can be attacked are attacked by the giant's Reach ability.

 

3) So LOS is necessary for Sweep to affect one of its targets. No need to repeat what is already explained about Reach in the rules.

 

* BTW, the "pole" idea given by RagsMckay does not fit the reach rule - so it cannot apply to the Sweep rule either.

 

So your answer is based on the argument that the reach attack is made first and sweep is added to it.

 

Could you not also make an argument based on the sweep being the primary attack and adding reach to it. Look at the definition of sweep:

 

Sweep: Perform an attack. This attack affects each figure within range of this monster's attack. Each figure rolls defense die separately.

 

Emphisis mine. Because the sweep says to make an attack not targeting any specific square and everything with in range is affected. Because of reach the other figure is now within range.

 

So creature 1 decides to swing a pole as a sweeping attack and creatures 2 and 3 are in the way, hence affected by the attack.

 

::Again this is my opinion. I happen to disagree the one of the creators answers and am explaining why I disagree.::


Edited by RagsMckay, 07 October 2013 - 02:27 PM.

I die...A lot.


#17 rugal

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

i'm waiting for Justin's response.

 

hope he will answer soon, i'm a bit confused



#18 Robin

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Ranged attack always requires LOS.
So the "within range" specification does imply that LOS is required.

**Of course, I am just having a nice time debating about the rules. Let's see what FFG answers.**
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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#19 Robin

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

If figures don't disallow sweep, what about obstacles?
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#20 rugal

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

official answer

 

Heroes 1, 2, and 4 would be affected, as well as the skeleton archer. Line of sight is needed
 
Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
 
looks like I was wrong, so, even if i still consider it's strange.

Edited by rugal, 10 October 2013 - 04:53 PM.





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