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Grey Knights and Deathwatch rules balancing


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#1 blazingsquirrel

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 08:45 AM

I know the topic of Grey Knights working with the Deathwatch came up before and is fiercely debated time and time again, but I'm wondering more on the actual balancing aspect of it. From what I gathered, it seems a GK is better off than a DW character in the beginning due to starting with a storm bolter but is going to be a bit hard pressed later due to lack of relics, artificer armor, and any real anti-armor other than the Psycannon. Would their apparent OP-ness be curbed with a GM doing a good job of keeping gear availability in check or is their plethora of psychic powers enough to push them to the level of too strong?



#2 DJSunhammer

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

Psychic powers shouldn't be a huge problem for GK characters. Normal GKs can't get enough PR to become extremely powerful. PR and the few powers they do get are more like additives than their main source of damage.



#3 Theofonias

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

Their psychic abilities are mainly turned inward to protect themselves.  It's through the psychic gestalt that they really have power (like when they used to to banish Angron).



#4 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 04:53 AM

From what I gathered, it seems a GK is better off than a DW character in the beginning due to starting with a storm bolter

 

And the Nemesis Force Sword. Those things are vicious - being essentially a force sword with the power field trait to boot.

 

The main ability of Grey Knights to kill something really big is to shove a nemesis sword (or halberd, or hammer) through its head. Hammerhand essentially allows an at-will Feat of Strength. Psycannons aren't bad but won't cut it against a tank.

 

However, I would also point out that (a) you are encouraged in Daemon Hunter to see that Knights are provided with whatever other equipment they need and (b) by the time the players are of a Deathwatch rank where relics would be making a regular appearance, the Knight is as standard in terminator plate wielding a psychicly enhanced thunder hammer - and that's assuming you ignore the Dreadknight armour.

 

The good news is that a lone Grey Knight in a Kill-Team (or similar situation) will struggle to use the 'proper' Knight powers - he has access to other abilities but won't be pulling off Hammerhand or Shrouding.

 

Are they overpowered? Depends on how you're using them. Are you intending to drop one as a standard character in a Kill-Team? in many cases they do suffer there, due to the lack of stuff like squad mode/solo mode abilities instead.



#5 blazingsquirrel

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:18 PM

 

From what I gathered, it seems a GK is better off than a DW character in the beginning due to starting with a storm bolter

 

And the Nemesis Force Sword. Those things are vicious - being essentially a force sword with the power field trait to boot.

 

The main ability of Grey Knights to kill something really big is to shove a nemesis sword (or halberd, or hammer) through its head. Hammerhand essentially allows an at-will Feat of Strength. Psycannons aren't bad but won't cut it against a tank.

 

However, I would also point out that (a) you are encouraged in Daemon Hunter to see that Knights are provided with whatever other equipment they need and (b) by the time the players are of a Deathwatch rank where relics would be making a regular appearance, the Knight is as standard in terminator plate wielding a psychicly enhanced thunder hammer - and that's assuming you ignore the Dreadknight armour.

 

The good news is that a lone Grey Knight in a Kill-Team (or similar situation) will struggle to use the 'proper' Knight powers - he has access to other abilities but won't be pulling off Hammerhand or Shrouding.

 

Are they overpowered? Depends on how you're using them. Are you intending to drop one as a standard character in a Kill-Team? in many cases they do suffer there, due to the lack of stuff like squad mode/solo mode abilities instead.

 

You're the first person I've seen that actually thinks that they are hindered noticeably by the lack of Solo/Squad mode abilities when teamed up with Deathwatch guys to which I agree. I've noticed that Squad Mode abilities are the bread and butter for a smooth run for the Deathwatch team.



#6 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 02:20 AM

You're the first person I've seen that actually thinks that they are hindered noticeably by the lack of Solo/Squad mode abilities when teamed up with Deathwatch guys to which I agree.

 

It depends to an extent on how much the players have gotten used to using squad and solo modes; it's often something people don't really touch early on in a campaign (whilst they're still trying to figure out all the many, many things they have to remember with a marine character*). Even just things like burst of speed or feat of strength are awesome.

 

Once players get used to things like bolter assault, especially once at the rank where they get full-auto bursts, they are truly, truly dirty. We have a veteran kill-team with cohesion stupid+1 that we had a first try with recently and my god they were hideous when they really let rip.

 

Player 1 fires semi-auto. Calls Bolter Assault.

Player 2 fires semi-auto. Calls Bolter Assault.

Player 3 fires semi-auto. Calls Bolter Assault.

Player 4 fires semi-auto. Calls Rally Cry.

 

Over the course of one round of combat, four marines pushed 48 bolter shells downrange into the advancing hordes. This was before we got to the fact that they were metal storm rounds, storm of iron, etc, etc. 

 

 

 

 

* True Grit, Armour Subsystems, Killing Blow, etc, etc.



#7 TormDK

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:44 AM

Magnus Grendel - Sounds beautiful!

 

I hope to aspire to make my Ultramarine into such a Coherence monster :D



#8 Baron Throatpunch

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:39 AM

Admittedly, balancing them is a tricky issue. Grey Knights are rough-and-tumble. They're supposed to be. For an example of just how crazily powerful they are, observe the Grey Knights Codex for the miniatures game. (For related headaches, read the fluff. Not that I'd recommend such a course of action.) The psychic power gulf can be overcome, I suppose, by the logic that every (nearly) every Chapter has Librarians. Equipstuff is another matter. My best advice might be, "Find a story reason to curb the Grey Knights' access to Terminator Armor and other heavy gear."


I'm gonna start burning heretics now. I'll stop when we're out of prometheum.


#9 Kshatriya

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:49 PM

Squad Modes frequently break the action economy. Having more actions than your enemy gives you keen strategic and tactical advantages.

 

Ergo Squad Mode powers >>> GK psychic abilities. In some situations the powers will be useful/better, but in my experience, Squad Mode is what keeps Kill Teams alive and dishing out tons of damage.

 

The main issue with mixing GK and DW is how their psychic powers work on totally different rulesets as GKs use the old DH system.

 

Side note - Magnus: how does that use of Bolter Assault square with "if a Battle-Brother takes a Squad Mode action or benefits from one taken by another member of his Kill-Team, he cannot benefit or take another Squad Mode action until at least the start of his next turn?" Seems like your higher initiative guy would call an Assault, but then would be excluded from participating in any assault called by members of his KT lower in the initiative order. Also...having just that much Cohesion is why I completely redid the Cohesion system for my games...players were unable to fail Cohesion Challenges and stocking basically unlimited Cohesion without a hard cap removed a lot of combat challenge and fun.


Edited by Kshatriya, 12 October 2013 - 07:49 PM.





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