Jump to content



Photo

My Solution to Mythos Deck Dilution


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:16 AM

It was not at all meant as a critique but just a funny note to show you that you're hardly the slowest player ever. 45-60 min for 4 turns seems on par with me with the first few turns taking the longest. Probably I could play more but I really don't have a game room per se so I can't really leave it set up permanently ( I kind of use a large old wooden dining room table on our enclosed patio) and tbh it may prevent me from buying more than a piece of two of your crafts.

 

What is Tibs' Contributors page? I've noted he does a lot of good things on this page and BGG--hope he never loses interest.


Edited by jackman51, 06 October 2013 - 10:17 AM.


#22 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:55 AM

jackman51,

 

     Ha!  No, I didn't take it as a critique, at all, my friend.  I play the game in a fundamentally different way from many other Arkhamites...more like an RPG, than a board game.  It's funny that you mention playing on a "large old wooden dining room table" because that's where I started before building a table last year for the room ~ 3' x 7' to accommodate the game and all of our pieces to bring the game to life!

 

     If you go to the first page of posts, you'll notice a few 'stickied' posts ~ one of which is Tibs' Arkham Horror Statistics Reports. Check out the 1st page in which you can submit games played and review the spreadsheet with over 10K games over the past 7-8 years, with a list of contributors on one of the spreadsheet's worksheets.

 

Fhtagn!

Joer


Edited by The Professor, 06 October 2013 - 10:56 AM.

  • jackman51 likes this

The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#23 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:51 AM

Oh yeah I did see that--one of these days I'll actually report a few games.

 

Role playing AH--how do you do that other than maybe flowery descriptions of turns or thematic scenarios?



#24 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:32 PM

jackman51,

 

     I don't, as has often been expressed as a winning strategy, dive into gates and attempt to seal them without so much as a "Hello, Arkham!"  I often read the Encounter/Other World cards without revealing the cost/prize; play each of the Investigators as individuals rather than a collection of attributes and items; and immerse myself in the entire experience, instead of Speed-Arkham as it's described around here.  I've written-up my special Variant over at bgg if you're interested...you have to understand that of the 100+ games I've played over the past four-and-a-half years, 95% have been solo with four Investigators.

 

Cheers,

Joe


  • Schwaig likes this

The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#25 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:39 PM

Well with two exceptions that's all I've done too. 

 

Are you saying that in some cases you won't trade certain items an investigator has because say he looks like Indianna Jones with his Bullwhip and Pistol? Because I sure know people who do that for real!



#26 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:20 AM

jackman51,

 

     Oh no, I won't 'cut off my nose to spite my face' as the saying goes, but instead truly enjoy the experience with each of the wonderfully-written encounters.

 

Cheers,

Joe


The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#27 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:28 AM

Ahhh I get it now...you dress up as one of the investigators...kinda like Comic Con. Man I've been itching to get to San Diego for years but never get a ticket. This must be your answer. ;)



#28 The Professor

The Professor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,303 posts

Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:09 PM

jackman51,

 

   I guess the new saying is, "What happens in Arkham...stays in Arkham!"

 

Cheers,

Joe


The Professor

http://crafthulhu.squarespace.com

 

 


#29 jackman51

jackman51

    Member

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:38 PM

Uh-oh. Never thought AH as a conduit for kinky role playing! ;)



#30 Zarach

Zarach

    Member

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 02 March 2014 - 01:49 PM

Has anyone gone through every Mythos card from every expansion and separated them by "Gate Opens At" locations? Is it an even spread? If there is a link to this please provide. Whatever the spread it would be nice to know from the designers stand point their reasoning for it being so. Then developing a dice rolling/card drawing mechanic that maintains the integrity of the spread.


"If you were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook" - The Social Network.


#31 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,127 posts

Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:50 PM

All the information is available at arkhamwiki.com: just choose the way you like to see the Mythos being sorted, and it's done. The common pattern is quite easily identifiable (Headline / Environments and Environments/Rumors ratio; number of bursts for different frequencies locations and so on)


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#32 Zarach

Zarach

    Member

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 02 March 2014 - 07:23 PM

Ah! Thanks.  

 

It will take me some time but based on this one can determine the percentage of particular gate opening within its own category (base or expansion).

 

Then it's just a matter of creating a die rolling mechanism that honors those percentages and adjusting it for multiple variations of base and expansion combinations.

 

I do prefer die rolling to shuffling. I've played enough now where we've played with an expansion and maybe once during the entire game drew a card that corresponded to the expansion.  A Dunwich game where no gates open in Dunwich for example. Lame.  I'm curious to play test this with the actual percentages while using a die - in the end it may come down to needing to  unsaturate the base game Mythos out of the mix to ensure a fully enriched expansion experience.  We'll see.


"If you were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook" - The Social Network.


#33 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,127 posts

Posted 02 March 2014 - 07:46 PM

I see what you mean. Part of the math has already been done by Avec. You can check here his results


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#34 Zarach

Zarach

    Member

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:47 PM

Thanks for that too. Very helpful!

 

It seems the overall problem is that FF jammed too many mechanics into one card.

 

If you're not drawing the same "gate opens at location" over and over, you are drawing the same type (Environment, Rumor, Headline types) over and over, or the "clue appears at" keeps appearing at the same location, or the same monster symbols keep getting drawn.  With 4 mechanics going on it's impossible to keep them all randomized.

 

My suggestion to FF would be to separate these (i know, i know - i hate to say it) into 4 separate decks.

 

Another reason to redesign the Mythos Deck...have you ever taught this game to someone? The mythos card design does not reflect the rule order. The person who draws the card reads it from top to bottom and you have to stop them and ask, "Where is the gate opening? The Gate? It's the bottom left corner..." and they're like, "Oh a clue appears at..." and you have to interrupt again, "No the gate - where is the gate opening ....bottom left..." 

 

I mean it's almost comical. So my suggestion:

A Gate Appears at deck

A Clue Appears at deck

Monsters Move Deck

And then the thematic Mythos deck describing the Headline or Rumor or Environment.

 

Until then, I'll see what I can figure out with some kind of die randomizer as the initial poster of this thread suggested.

 

Thanks again to Julia for finding those great posts on percentages.


"If you were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook" - The Social Network.


#35 Julia

Julia

    I survived Avi's apocalypse

  • Members
  • 6,127 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:34 AM

Hey, my pleasure helping :)

 

Allow me to disagree on one point: you cannot really have two different decks for gates and clues. Point is that clues are specifically spawn at certain locations considering the gate that opens there. For example most of the Mythos opening a gate at the Woods have the clue appearing at the Historical Society. And this is done because the Woods are a high frequency location, so many times in the game a gate could open there, and the Historical is a low freq location (only 2 gates open there if we look at the core game only). This means one place is dangerous, and the other one hosts the resources to seal the dangerous one. If the Clue distribution woulnd't respect the gates opening, you risk ending up with resources allocated not in the way they should be (drawing from two piles introduces an additional random factor that is not present in the actual composition of the deck).

 

So, if you want to develop a sort of randomizer for this one, you should consider linking these two variables, since they are already linked in the original game design


We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Custom Arkham Horror material / Arkham Horror Advanced Players League

#36 Zarach

Zarach

    Member

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:23 PM

Good point! I'm sure there are reasons they tied specific monster movement and thematic events together with the gates and clues as well. But having 4 mechanics on one card can and does become a problem when 1 or 2 of those mechanics keep showing up consecutively.  There has to be an answer.


"If you were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook" - The Social Network.


#37 BenEggler

BenEggler

    Member

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:51 PM

After putting in much, much, much, much more time with Arkham Horror since I originally made this thread, I think the answer is really quite simple:

 

Shuffle the deck better.

 

Now, I don't mean to say that you don't shuffle properly or well enough, but I genuinely believe that the real trick is to just shuffle the Hell out of the Mythos deck.

 

I think the whole point to Arkham Horror is its ability to be completely random. Sometimes a gate is constantly drawn at the same location. Sometimes clues keep appearing at the same location. Sometimes every single Mythos card is unique in those regards throughout the entire game. If every time you play the game you are drawing several Mythos cards with the same gate location, then you're doing something wrong. Here is a solution for when playing with an expansion:

 

For example, if playing with the base game and Dunwich, do this:

 

There are 67 Mythos cards in the base game. There are 36 Mythos cards in Dunwich. Lay out ALL the Dunwich cards and make 36 single-card piles. Then, lay 2 base game Mythos cards on top of each pile, except for 5 of them since there aren't enough cards to do so. Stack every pile on top of one another to make your deck. Now the expansion cards are distributed evenly throughout the Mythos deck. Now that you know there aren't massive clumps of base game Mythos cards in the deck, begin shuffling and do so for a solid 5 minutes. The deck should keep fairly evenly spread and make for a much more well-rounded game.

 

This is what I do every time I play now with an expansion and I think it works wonderfully. I genuinely think that the only real "answer" or "Solution" to the Mythos deck is to shuffle it more than you want to and then some more. :)

 

 

Edit: If my numbers are wrong on the Mythos cards, I apologize. :)


Edited by BenEggler, 03 March 2014 - 01:52 PM.


#38 Zarach

Zarach

    Member

  • Members
  • 17 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:49 PM

I think the whole point to Arkham Horror is its ability to be completely random. Sometimes a gate is constantly drawn at the same location. Sometimes clues keep appearing at the same location. Sometimes every single Mythos card is unique in those regards throughout the entire game. 

 

No need for apologies.  

 

If I played this game every week, I would totally get behind this. I do appreciate the "you get what you get" approach. Very Lovecraft. Horror is perfected by imperfections. But because I can only get a good group together 3 or 4 times a year at best, I want to make the most out of the game especially when incorporating the expansions.  

 

I played and introduced a new player last week, we added Dunwich, and nothing happened there. This person was, rightfully so, like, "What was the point of that extra board?"

 

Shuffle like mad is good in theory but as I noted, there are 4 mechanics at play on each card.  Also, shuffling more doesn't mean more randomness, but rather more opportunity to shuffle back into some kind of order.  If you want some mind blowing math on card shuffling check out this 40 page math presentation where at the bottom of page 18 finally gets to 7 being the number of times to shuffle a deck of 52 cards:

 

https://www.dartmout...ticles/Mann.pdf

 

Of course it will be more than 7 shuffles with 103 cards. I'd be more inclined to do the 36 pile thing, put them together and leave it at that... however, I'm more intrigued by your original die rolling mechanism.  I just have to figure out how to best tip the percentages to ensure a fully immersed playing experience.  


"If you were the inventors of Facebook, you'd have invented Facebook" - The Social Network.


#39 darksun5

darksun5

    Member

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:51 PM

I've been using a variation of avec's method.  Playing with all expansions, rather than preconstructing the deck, I use different colored beads drawn from a bag to determine which Mythos deck to draw from: Arkham gate, Innsmouth gate, Dunwich gate, or other.  One bead is for "Old Debts Come Due" and one is for the reshuffle card which will reset all of the beads into the bag.  This gives you a similar effect to the dice rolling method while keeping up with the odds.



#40 Schwaig

Schwaig

    Member

  • Members
  • 94 posts

Posted 04 March 2014 - 04:40 PM

I think I pointed this out before:

 

Dice rolling can never achieve the same results as card drawing. Even if you had somehow projected the card distribution onto your dice rolling system perfectly, the percentages would still change with every card drawn. A dice rolling system that can handle these changing probabilities would be absurdly complex I guess and not practicable.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS