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Suppressing Fire, Suppressing Gameplay


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#61 SgtLazarus

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 11:31 AM

Ultimately, I leave a lot of it to my own discretion as a GM. I typically have to decide when enough is enough and they revert to just plain old shooting to conserve ammunition. Granted, I use Severans with autoguns most of the time, meaning that they dry up after about three suppressions.


Only War Conversions; The Dying Race (Eldar) / The Dark Kin (Dark Eldar) / Only Waaagh!!! (Orks) / The Greater Good (Tau) / Sons of the Emperor (Space Marines) / We Are Legion (Chaos)

Characters; Tempestor Jonah Antioch, Tenebris 17th Stormtrooper Corps (Transferred to Elysian 13th Helldivers following the destruction of Tenebris by the Tau.) Requisitioned for service by the Ordo Xenos. / Staff Sergeant Astra Seras, Cadian 99th Mechanised Medicae. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron threat. / Commissar Oswald Trant, 999th Death Korps of Krieg Vanguard Regiment. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron Threat. / Sergeant Lucius Orion, 101st Armageddon Siege Infantry, serving on Skrynne.

 


#62 Terraneaux

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

Flame weapons, or just honestly blast weapons that don't care too much about hitting (grenade launchers, for example). Even if they scatter the d5 meters they can still hit the target you're shooting at with that -20 bs penalty. That or everyone take Frenzon.



#63 Myrion

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:25 AM

The range of flame weapons is just too short for that, though. And we've tried grenades, but the supply is very limited and as long as they don't kill (which is most of the time) it doesn't stop the enemy from suppressing. Oh and Indirect Fire is out, since it's a Full Action.



#64 SgtLazarus

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:56 AM

...Have you tried suppressing them first?


Only War Conversions; The Dying Race (Eldar) / The Dark Kin (Dark Eldar) / Only Waaagh!!! (Orks) / The Greater Good (Tau) / Sons of the Emperor (Space Marines) / We Are Legion (Chaos)

Characters; Tempestor Jonah Antioch, Tenebris 17th Stormtrooper Corps (Transferred to Elysian 13th Helldivers following the destruction of Tenebris by the Tau.) Requisitioned for service by the Ordo Xenos. / Staff Sergeant Astra Seras, Cadian 99th Mechanised Medicae. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron threat. / Commissar Oswald Trant, 999th Death Korps of Krieg Vanguard Regiment. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron Threat. / Sergeant Lucius Orion, 101st Armageddon Siege Infantry, serving on Skrynne.

 


#65 pearldrum1

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 07:20 AM

I just don't understand how this is such a recurring problem.

 

Are you constantly ambushed? Do your players never pass awareness tests? Are your initiatives all so low that you never act first? Have you tried not rushing headlong into fights but outmaneuvering the enemy before you are engaged to have the upper hand and catch them unaware? Do you have a sniper or any heavy weapon long-range element?

 

Or is it a problem with your GM where you are just walking down the countryside and out of nowhere you are being suppressed?


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#66 Myrion

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 08:37 AM

Nope, we almost never pass Awareness, as most of us didn't have it at creation and didn't realize how important it was. With -20 to any Awareness test we constantly fail. We haven't had the chance to outmaneuver the enemy yet, except in one circumstance which was then handled narratively (mop-up after a bigger fight).
Yes, the sniper has gotten us out by eventually breaking the enemy twice so far.
The first time, we didn't try suppressing, as it was our first game ever. After that, yes, but we had bad luck with the dice. 

I wasn't the one who restarted this topic, because I haven't really gotten to play again. However, the issue remains, that once you are pinned, the game just stops. Yes, there are some ways to avoid it, yes, the GM can just opt not to use it but none of that actually addresses that Suppressive Fire as written is too powerful.
 



#67 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 10:42 AM

You suppress for a reason. The reason is usually to get into a better position to actually kill the people you're suppressing. While enemies are suppressing your squad, they should be trying to flank you or get into melee range. In other words, suppression that lasts longer than 3 rounds is pointless, and a complete waste of ammunition, because while it might kill your squad, the next one they meet is going to have their mags be amusingly empty.

 

Another option to deal with it is loose formation. If you can't be encompassed by a 45 degree arc, you can't all be supressed. An entire squad trying to suppress is idiotic. It won't happen. It's usually the heavy weapons crew doing it with something with an insane rate of fire, not some dude with a las-gun.


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 06 October 2014 - 10:42 AM.

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#68 Myrion

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 12:36 AM

I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. RAW, however, that isn't really true. A lasgun can suppress for a long time without running out of ammo, and two, possibly three people out of ten is hardly the whole squad, and more than enough. 



#69 DeathByGrotz

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 03:06 AM

Semi-auto suppression by a single gunner should not be possible. That's why line infantry is even a thing in 40k. Volleys are what should be suppressing there, because taking on a firing line is  scary.

 

In other words, the rules aren't ideal. I'd suggest having conceivable tactical reasons outside the rules allowing something to take an action. It makes things more fun for everyone at the table.


Edited by DeathByGrotz, 07 October 2014 - 03:09 AM.


#70 SgtLazarus

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 06:15 AM

I imagine limiting suppression to automatic weapons fixes a lot of it really. I usually only have Autoguns and Heavy Bolters use it, so the players inherently expect to be suppressed and flanked, so wait for the sniper go nail the guy with the auto weapon.

 

RAW, sure, semi auto can do it. Just making it auto only - even if only for NPCs - does go a long way.


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Only War Conversions; The Dying Race (Eldar) / The Dark Kin (Dark Eldar) / Only Waaagh!!! (Orks) / The Greater Good (Tau) / Sons of the Emperor (Space Marines) / We Are Legion (Chaos)

Characters; Tempestor Jonah Antioch, Tenebris 17th Stormtrooper Corps (Transferred to Elysian 13th Helldivers following the destruction of Tenebris by the Tau.) Requisitioned for service by the Ordo Xenos. / Staff Sergeant Astra Seras, Cadian 99th Mechanised Medicae. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron threat. / Commissar Oswald Trant, 999th Death Korps of Krieg Vanguard Regiment. Currently serving on Hephaestus against the Necron Threat. / Sergeant Lucius Orion, 101st Armageddon Siege Infantry, serving on Skrynne.

 


#71 Commediante

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:49 AM

And what exactly stops your from retreating while you're pinned?

Thats how it is done in real world. If the whole team is immobilised thats the only solution.

Next time youre gonna send only one guy at the pinners and make them spray. Other guys may try to outflank the enemy. Or you can stretch your troops so that the arc no longer covers entire team.

Or even better you can send only one guy behind a wall to make noise and shoot occasionally. Make enemy shoot out all the rounds and strike when hes gonna reload or starting to conserve ammo. Not much of a rolling is required here and only one player and GM is required so the other guys may go and grab some beer or sth.

#72 Myrion

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 10:41 AM

The bits about only being allowed a half action and not being allowed to leave cover. I suppose we could've lain down and crawled away, thereby staying in cover, even if 3m movement is not enough to actually reach the next bit of cover. Apart from that, my character had no cover within 3m that he could've retreated to.



#73 Commediante

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:25 AM

Ah, sry, it was our house rule that pinned characters may decide to run for it (leave the "arena" of the fight) while being pinned, They can't do anything else during the run, not even turn their heads back to see what's going on. The enemy receives a free round of actions against them (so he can shoot them while they're out of cover, running), can reload while the pinned characters regroup, change positions, gather the wounded or even chase pinned characters.

 

Pinned characters may then assemble in the last safe place that they visited and try to be more cautious next time - send scouts, find a flanking route to the enemy, an upper ground.


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#74 Myrion

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:09 PM

Interesting... Chance to try again with consequences. I like that as a rule :)



#75 pearldrum1

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Posted 25 October 2014 - 11:30 PM

That is a really good solution, Com. I am taking that.



#76 Commediante

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 02:28 AM

Thanks. All the credit goes to Relic RTS games Company of Heroes series and DoW2 though :D

 

I liked it because it keeps the encounters dynamic. Originally in those video games retreating troops received uber-defence against shooting damage and uber-handicaps against cc damage. It was assumed that they keep a low profile while retreating fast and don't pay attention to who's standing in their way. That allowed you to set very nasty traps:

 

1. Sneak behind the enemy squad with your cc guys.

2. Pin down the enemy squad with a heave machine gun/heavy bolter etc.

3. Throw grenade at them if they don't wanna retreat or your time is running short.

4. Enemy squad either dies from grenade* or runs to have it's guts spilled out by your cc guys.

 

*of cours in OW grenades are not that powerful RaW, though they can still frighten the enemy.

 

If you want you can reflect that in your house rules to balance the difficulty.


Edited by Commediante, 26 October 2014 - 02:29 AM.

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