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Which Runner Would You Choose?

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#1 ffgjosh



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:20 AM

Are three brains better than one? Which of the two Plugged-in Tour Runner identities would you choose? Laramy Fisk or The Collective? One will join the game. One will be derezzed.


Which do you find more exciting? Which do you think will better serve the game? What existing cards present interesting synergies with these identities? What sort of cards and play styles would you expect to accompany these identities?


Theorize. Post deck lists. Comment on art. Just keep it civil. This is your place to discuss the merits of both Laramy Fisk and The Collective.


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#2 stormwolf27



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:56 AM

Both Identities have outstanding art (as is the norm with FFG's LCG's).


I just don't see Fisk being a viable option. If he was Anarch with more synergy from cards like Imp, Demolition Run and other "mill" cards without having to spend the influence, I'm sure he would be better, but as it stands, he just doesn't work, and I think he is destined to disappear into the ether.


The Collective, on the other hand, I think is an awesome addition to the Shaper identities. Having lower influence and a higher deck minimum doesn't hurt them that much with all the "in-house" options for Shaper. Sure it could be better, but I'm sure there could, and probably will be, even more synergy for them down the line. The concept of being able to gain a click for doing three of the same actions (three runs and 2 Notorieties, having Magnum Opus out and getting 10 credits... the list goes on and on).


Haven't sat down and built a deck list for The Collective yet, cause there are just so many possibilities, but don't think I could come up with a viable option for Laramy Fisk... just don't see it.

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

#3 Scala



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:00 AM

People have been playtesting both identities.


The consensus seems to be that The Collective is nearly game-breaking.  The economic advantage it gets from Magnum Opus or Professional Contacts is overwhelming for the corp.  The downsides of a larger deck and less influence are pretty trivial for shapers. The Collective can draw 3 for 2 clicks, so the extra 10 cards doesn't really slow them down.  Besides, shapers can tutor for whatever they want anyways.  The Collective is already the best identity, with new cards it'll only get stronger.  Not enough influence? It's still enough to put 3 Datasuckers in and play Atman.


Laramy Fisk seems to be a currently below-average runner.  Even so, it has room to grow with future card releases and could become formidable.


The question is, would the Netrunner community rather unleash an identity that's nearly broken with potential to become more broken, or would the community rather have Laramy Fisk who is more reasonable and has potential to fit his niche later on?


Personally, I'd rather see Laramy Fisk win.

Edited by Scala, 27 September 2013 - 11:01 AM.

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#4 gumOnShoe



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:52 AM

Fisk will be very good with cards like nerve agent; but more importantly, he'll be balanced. I just can't vote a broken identity into the system. The collective is way too good; especially since any action provided by a card will just give them an extra click.


How scary is Professional Contacts turn 1?


Action [Credits Left]


Turn 1:

Professional Contacts [0]

Use Contacts [1]

Use Contacts [1]

Use Contacts [1]

Do something else?


Ending the turn with, 6-7 cards in hand, 3 credits and the ability to dig 5 deep the next turn. Even if the corp scores by rush, The Collective will be untraceable, unscorchable, and just generally all powerful.


But that's really the best thing you could hope for is the runner dilly dallying the first few turns, scoring a few agendas off the top of your deck, and then winning with 2x notoriety.


Influence is:

2 Data Suckers

1 Femme

1 Parasite


Edit: Oh, yeah, +3 atman. smc,clonechip,etc  ;)


This deck has been tested, and its win rate is very very high.

Edited by gumOnShoe, 27 September 2013 - 01:06 PM.

#5 nungunz



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

Agreed with the above two.  I like The Collective and the theme and fluff is awesome!


However I think the ID is damn near game breaking powerful for the reasons stated previously.  I'm voting for Fisk.  I'd rather have a more balanced runner than an overpowered runner.

#6 Operadragon



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:34 PM

In for Fisk. Points from above are still plenty reason to lean that way.

Edited by Operadragon, 27 September 2013 - 12:34 PM.

#7 CommissarFeesh



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 01:48 PM

I agree that the collective is powerful - some would say obscenely so.

However, a lot of people are basing this on OCTGN data, which is flawed for two reasons:

1) the sample size is currently too small to be statistically significant

2) more importantly, there is currently still a lot of debate about what counts for trigegring the ability. It's highly likely the ID is being played incorrectly, intentionally or otherwise.

Now I'm not saying the ID isn't powerful - obviously it is. The PC example above shows only one extreme that the collective can be put to, and I've seen decent analysis with other examples. I'm just wary at the moment of the knee-jerk reaction people are having to the OCTGN data. Don't let that colour your impression too much.
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#8 The Black Man

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:10 PM

My vote is on The Collective. At 55/5 it will play really different too which can make for some real interesting matches. The discipline you will need at times when playing this should be great fun and provide many challenges on when to use those same three actions. A very different play style. I like it.

#9 frybender



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:27 PM

I'm definitely voting for Fisk. The Collecitve is way too strong and not fun to play with or against.

#10 Madfoxinator



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

I plan on voting for fisk as well because of the aforementioned reasons. I would like to see the collective return but reworked. It has so many great ideas with a big hand size and low influence but it just seems like a card that will break the game. Here are my two cents on how to fix the card


1) Add a cost in credits to perform the action. If it cost four credits plus 3 clicks on the same turn it would somewhat mirror the price of the biotic labor card with one requiring the chance of receiving the card and the other requiring 3 consecutive clicks of actions. This would cut out the fear of an early economy rush while forcing us to develop combos.


2) Limit the number of times this can be done in game. Force us to choose whether we want to go for this early economy rush or save it for a big play.



Please keep the card art, keep the general feel of the card because I would love to see it in the game. Just don't break the game.

Edited by Madfoxinator, 27 September 2013 - 04:02 PM.

#11 Ramas



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

I really like the theme of "The Collective" so I'd vote for them.


I would really like to see the losing identity recycled themewise in pictures and texts of other cards. Somthing like "Special  Announcement" Ops for NBN with Fisk in handcuffs or "Secret Lab" Weyland Agenda with The Collective as lab rats. So you would see what happend to them.

#12 ranapuer



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Posted 27 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

Here's why I'm voting Fisk:

Fisk lets the runner play an entirely different playstyle. While The Collective simply lets you do more of what you were already doing, Fisk gives you access to an ability that's completely new and might not be seen again. The Collective is good and lets you do good things and get more clicks to do more good things, but they will not enable new effects. On the flipside, Fisk lets you play a new type of game: go uptempo and force the corp to draw too many agendas, but risk giving them the resources they need to take you down. Fisk might stink now, but a card might always be printed that makes him better and enables an entirely different type of criminal play. That's good for the game, because we definitely need some criminal variety.


#13 Saturnine



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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:11 AM

Fisk lets the runner play an entirely different playstyle. 


I don't see it. You can affect the corp's playstyle to some degree (and I don't feel like drawing a couple of extra cards is going to be a big deal in most cases), but Fisk himself won't play really any differently than any other criminal. It'll have the biggest impact on the early game, when you can still pound their centrals (which you would be doing with any other runner as well), but once they're iced up Fisk has a harder time keeping the pressure up than some of the other runners.

#14 Canales



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Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:26 AM


Fisk lets the runner play an entirely different playstyle. 


I don't see it. You can affect the corp's playstyle to some degree (and I don't feel like drawing a couple of extra cards is going to be a big deal in most cases), but Fisk himself won't play really any differently than any other criminal. It'll have the biggest impact on the early game, when you can still pound their centrals (which you would be doing with any other runner as well), but once they're iced up Fisk has a harder time keeping the pressure up than some of the other runners.



I think people should stop theorizing so much and just try the IDs for a couple of games.


Fisk is the most aggressive Criminal and plays differently than Gabe. He applies lots of pressure on all 3 central servers from the get go. If he uses HQ Interface or Nerve Agent, he can flood the corp's hand and see the top card in R&D without even accessing R&D. He is really fun to play with, just try him (you will need cards that aren't used in other builds, like HQ Interface, Deep Thought, etc.).


The Collective, on the other hand, is insanely powerful. I would say it is the best runner so far. It will eventuallly outpace any corporation. I have played quite a few games with it and have crushed the corp every time. Influence limitation is not really a limitation with all the Shapers' tutoring cards. It is fun to crush corps from time to time, but I don't want to see tourneys where everyone and their mother play The Collective.

#15 Ravensburg42



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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:37 AM

As a novice Netrunner player, I personally favor Fisk. I think that in the current metagame, Shapers have had a lot of cards thrown their way with Creation and Control. I also think Fisk's ability is a fascinating one; being able to control the tempo of the game early on is critical for the runner, and Fisk capitalizes on that ability. The Collective is interesting, with the most striking ability vs flexibility ratio of any identity card released. That being said, I think that while the Collective powers-up current strategies, Fisk opens up new ones. As a result, Fisk wholeheartedly gets my vote.

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#16 Tzeechel



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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:38 AM

I'm voting Fisk. I am a die hard criminal player, and want to see a criminal identity that can play competitively with a different feel than Gabe and Andy.

#17 OddCrow



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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:31 PM

Fisk is getting my vote.


I'm of the opinion that potential support cards release for Fisk (events, resources, console, etc) would be a lot more interesting for the game than the collective's.

#18 Marginal0



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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:44 AM

I'd rather be interesting in building and playing around The Collective. The other card might be fresh, but just seems crappy at first sight. If there's enough support it might be viable.

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#19 Vuud



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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:10 AM

I am voting for Fisk. I find the Collective very boring. And FFG already said that whatever Identity is chosen, it will come with cards to support them. So yeah, Fisk may be weak as of now, but when he comes out in his data pack (or deluxe?), he could be very interesting.

#20 FireSoCold



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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:39 AM

I say DOWN WITH THE COLLECTIVE!! icon_evil.gif

Laramy Fisk all the way!! icon_mrgreen.gif

Data on BGG and OCTGN indicates that The Collective has an unprecedented win rate in playtesting and the identity could potentially imbalance the game even further. Personally, I don't know how correct that data is since I haven't tried either identity for myself, however I'd prefer a balanced card over yet another over-powered one any day.

Fisk will offer new and interesting approaches to deckbuilding the Criminal. The Collective is stagnant yet powerful, further pigeon-holing the Shapers to do more of what they already do very well.

The Runners (especially the Shapers!) already have an economic stranglehold on the game and are agruably the most powerful faction to date. We don't need another juiced up Shaper Identity!

Vote for something DIFFERENT!

Vote for VARIETY!

Vote for BALANCE!

Vote for FISK!!!

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