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Psykers in Battle


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#1 venkelos

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:29 AM

So, assuming you are in a game where the GM hasn't outright outlawed psykers, how do you fight? I surmise that the psyker character still gets all the universal gear of a guardsman, so a pistol and/or lasgun seem guaranteed, but do you use them? Do you prefer to raze the foes with a psychic bolt, and risk Perils, or do you more often stick to conventional weaponry?



#2 Ghaundan

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:09 AM

I never gave the psyker a lasgun. Why would he? He's a psyker. He's not there to be frontlining with the grunts. No! He gets armour though, and his staff, and his mind melting abilities.

He tends to stick with psychic abilites, and has pushed several times when things got bad.



#3 Robomummy

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:28 AM

the psyker in our party has periled at least 5 times in 3 sessions and he is still alright (though if he gains another 5 corruption points he will become mutated and if it is obvious his comrade will shoot him).


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#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

I never gave the psyker a lasgun. Why would he? He's a psyker. He's not there to be frontlining with the grunts. No! He gets armour though, and his staff, and his mind melting abilities.

He tends to stick with psychic abilites, and has pushed several times when things got bad.

I would assume that Sanctioned Psykers tend to be issued Laspistols (or similar) because psychic abilities tends to be wildly dangerous, and thus inappropriate to use unless warranted. In addition, conventional weapons can be used to kill yourself in a pinch, if there's no Commissars or battlefield retainers nearby.

And speaking of psykers killing themselves, it's odd that the Sanctioned Psykers in Only War doesn't start with a Psykana Mercy-blade, as the Imperial Psykers in Dark Heresy. Knives specifically made to kill yourself if you're suffering a psychic phenomena or perils of the warp.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 26 September 2013 - 07:07 PM.

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#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 03:14 PM

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.



#6 Fgdsfg

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:59 PM

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.

Unless something's changed in Only War (I honestly can't be bothered to dig out the rulebook at the moment, I apologize for being lazy as hell, it's 3 AM, give me a break), there is nothing preventing you from carrying a both a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon.

You can only use a two-handed weapon if you have both your hands free. But holding your staff in one hand and a pistol in the other should be fine. Another option if you have an antagonistic GM would be to simply holster either.

I would never, ever, ever expect a Sanctioned Psyker to actually use their staff in melee, anyway, except perhaps as a last resort, but by then, the Tyranids are already chewing on your face. I've only ever seen the staff of Sanctioned Psykers as a sign of authority, as an identifier of the Scholastia Psykana, or as a Psy-Focus.

One of the archetypical models used to portray the classic sanctioned psyker specifically holds the staff in one hand while shooting with a laspistol in the other.

Edit: Also, laspistols and lasguns are two different things. Once I realized that you said lasguns, I'm no longer sure if you misread me or what. Because obviously, there would be difficulties holding a Staff while also using a Lasgun, for the same reason it would be hard to use a Staff while holding a Laspistol. But to hold a staff and use a laspistol, there should be no issues at all.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 26 September 2013 - 07:06 PM.

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#7 gruntl

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:45 AM

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.

There are no rules that say that the Psyker has to carry the staff at all. Maybe it's bound to his back, maybe he just left it the ship.

 

As far as I've understood the rules the specialists get the same basic gear as the guardsmen so the Psyker will have both armor and laspistol (or lasgun if upgraded).  



#8 venkelos

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 09:32 AM

 

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.

There are no rules that say that the Psyker has to carry the staff at all. Maybe it's bound to his back, maybe he just left it the ship.

 

As far as I've understood the rules the specialists get the same basic gear as the guardsmen so the Psyker will have both armor and laspistol (or lasgun if upgraded).  

 

+1

 

Somewhere here, I once had a post to this effect, where I inquired if the Psyker, happening to be a member of the Kasrkin regiment, would get all of their cool gear (carapace armor, hot-shot las-weapon, etc), or if the Imperium, fearing giving a psyker anything good and then would have to deal with them, would hold back the good gear, and the consensus was that the character, regardless of class, gets the regimental gear; An SP trained with the Cadian Kasrkin would have trained to use that equipment, after their training with the Scholastica Psykana stint. As an aside, the fact that, while many see psykers as cursed fiends, just waiting to explode, strategically-minded  thinkers must see them as valuable assets, and work to protect them, unless it becomes impossible, and then the Commissar solemnly ventilates the Psyker's head. This justifies the investment of carapace armor, a real gun, and maybe someday a vaunted force weapon, if the player can ever proceed that far, at least if the other players are also getting good stuff.

 

Yeah, my thought here was more to see if, with the gear they should have, if Psykers more often used it, and held onto powers for more serious moments.



#9 Fgdsfg

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

 

 

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.

There are no rules that say that the Psyker has to carry the staff at all. Maybe it's bound to his back, maybe he just left it the ship.

 

As far as I've understood the rules the specialists get the same basic gear as the guardsmen so the Psyker will have both armor and laspistol (or lasgun if upgraded).  

 

+1

 

Somewhere here, I once had a post to this effect, where I inquired if the Psyker, happening to be a member of the Kasrkin regiment, would get all of their cool gear (carapace armor, hot-shot las-weapon, etc), or if the Imperium, fearing giving a psyker anything good and then would have to deal with them, would hold back the good gear, and the consensus was that the character, regardless of class, gets the regimental gear; An SP trained with the Cadian Kasrkin would have trained to use that equipment, after their training with the Scholastica Psykana stint. As an aside, the fact that, while many see psykers as cursed fiends, just waiting to explode, strategically-minded  thinkers must see them as valuable assets, and work to protect them, unless it becomes impossible, and then the Commissar solemnly ventilates the Psyker's head. This justifies the investment of carapace armor, a real gun, and maybe someday a vaunted force weapon, if the player can ever proceed that far, at least if the other players are also getting good stuff.

 

Yeah, my thought here was more to see if, with the gear they should have, if Psykers more often used it, and held onto powers for more serious moments.

 

If I were the Psyker, I would either wait for orders, or use a Pistol, otherwise waiting for orders given by the Sergeant, Commissar or similar person of authority.

Sanctioned Psykers are conditioned and trained, and go through grueling processes and education, knowing full well that they might explode at any moment. While some psykers might push themselves, some might be suicidal, some might be downright seditious, I would think that the vast majority "know their place" and not to Push powers left and right - especially within range of the Commissar, that should be nearby in 9 cases out of 10.

Psykers are strategic or tactical assets, sometimes glass cannons in combat situations, and they should be treated as such, expect to be treated as such, and treat themselves as such.


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#10 Nightcloak

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

i didnt handout all regimental gear to my groups psyker
by rules he should get it and what not but by fluff he wouldnt

psykers are on loan to the imperial guard, the are not part of it

they are attached to squads, most often only to command squads and serve a very special prupose

 

i can see why a kasrkin regiment would hand a psyker a carapace since he has to go into battle next to them but why would you give him a hotshot weapon? a laspistol for selfdefense okay, a staff or maybe a sword sure

 

of course he also needs to get special gear like gravchutes that are essential to the regiment



#11 Fgdsfg

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:19 PM

i didnt handout all regimental gear to my groups psyker
by rules he should get it and what not but by fluff he wouldnt

psykers are on loan to the imperial guard, the are not part of it

they are attached to squads, most often only to command squads and serve a very special prupose

 

i can see why a kasrkin regiment would hand a psyker a carapace since he has to go into battle next to them but why would you give him a hotshot weapon? a laspistol for selfdefense okay, a staff or maybe a sword sure

 

of course he also needs to get special gear like gravchutes that are essential to the regiment

By fluff, there is no reason at all that the Psykers wouldn't get regimental gear. The argument that they are on loan to the Imperial Guard doesn't hold water, because they operate under regimental command, and gear is issued by the regiment for the purpose of equipping squads to fulfil regimental duties; squad(s) that the psyker is part of.

 

By the same logic, you wouldn't give the Commissar regimental gear either, because they are "on loan" from the Commissariat. You wouldn't give Ministorum Priests regimental gear because they are "on loan" from the Adeptus Ministorum. You wouldn't give Enginseers regimental gear because they are "on load" from the Adeptus Mechanicus. Similarly, Storm Troopers are "on loan" from specific Storm Trooper regiments, with very, very few exceptions.

Don't get me started on Ogryns and Ratlings, that isn't even from the same kind of worlds as anyone else in the regiment.

There are issues with regimental gear in that it is handed out as standard issue to everyone, even when they don't *need* it. But this argument exists for every single specialization, whether it's a Sergeant or a Medic or a Psyker. That's why they also have specialist equipment issued by the regiment.

The entire idea behind "standard issue" is that it's standard issue(!). It's issued as a matter of regimental standard, to everyone operating under that regiment, whether you're a rank-and-file guardsman, a general, or some drunk back at home base.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 27 September 2013 - 07:20 PM.

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#12 Shanix

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:42 PM

By the same logic, you wouldn't give the Commissar regimental gear either, because they are "on loan" from the Commissariat. You wouldn't give Ministorum Priests regimental gear because they are "on loan" from the Adeptus Ministorum. You wouldn't give Enginseers regimental gear because they are "on load" from the Adeptus Mechanicus. Similarly, Storm Troopers are "on loan" from specific Storm Trooper regiments, with very, very few exceptions.

 

Don't get me started on Ogryns and Ratlings, that isn't even from the same kind of worlds as anyone else in the regiment.

You wouldn't.  It's pretty much stated that Commissars don't get Imperial Gear, they get stuff that actually works.  Ministorum Priests, IIRC, also don't get the same stuff.  For some reason I think that get some form of choice on their gear, so, I dunno but I know they don't get standard equipment.  I don't think the Enginseers will even consider accepting the gear, and if they did, they'd spend the next few...years, decades, going through the regiment explaining why the Guardsmen are **** at keeping their gear in good condition.  Storm Troopers might be the only one really hard, but honestly, it makes sense that they don't get the same equipment.  They're freakin' storm troopers man.  It makes perfect sense, actually, they don't get standard gear but Gear+.

 

So it makes perfect sense they don't get the same stuff.  Ogryn get specified gear because they've got super strength and may or may not have brains.  Ratlings can't have standard equipment for the same reason - they're subhuman.  They physically cannot have the same gear, or else it'll only get past one shoulder or it'd be like wearing a Jaeger suit and assuming it'll fit the same as fitted armor.



#13 LuciusT

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:03 PM

 

By the same logic, you wouldn't give the Commissar regimental gear either, because they are "on loan" from the Commissariat. You wouldn't give Ministorum Priests regimental gear because they are "on loan" from the Adeptus Ministorum. You wouldn't give Enginseers regimental gear because they are "on load" from the Adeptus Mechanicus. Similarly, Storm Troopers are "on loan" from specific Storm Trooper regiments, with very, very few exceptions.

Don't get me started on Ogryns and Ratlings, that isn't even from the same kind of worlds as anyone else in the regiment.

 

This is why, for my game, I used the Mixed Regiments rules for Support Specialists (or would if anyone played one).



#14 Fgdsfg

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

 

By the same logic, you wouldn't give the Commissar regimental gear either, because they are "on loan" from the Commissariat. You wouldn't give Ministorum Priests regimental gear because they are "on loan" from the Adeptus Ministorum. You wouldn't give Enginseers regimental gear because they are "on load" from the Adeptus Mechanicus. Similarly, Storm Troopers are "on loan" from specific Storm Trooper regiments, with very, very few exceptions.

Don't get me started on Ogryns and Ratlings, that isn't even from the same kind of worlds as anyone else in the regiment.

 
This is why, for my game, I used the Mixed Regiments rules for Support Specialists (or would if anyone played one).

 


While I think there's a certain logic to doing that (although the arguments against it presented in Only War Core Rulebook has a certain amount of merit), Mixed Regiments still only has one Standard Regimental Guardsman Kit. Again, precisely for the same aforementioned reason it's even called standard.


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#15 LuciusT

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 08:34 PM

"Optionally, especially for Mixed Regiments that recently been merged in the field, the Game Master might at his discretion choose to have members of the Component Regiments retain some or all items of their Standard Issue Equipment."



#16 Nightcloak

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 11:02 PM

standard gear is for standard soldiers
sergeants, medic and all those roles are still normal guardsman

 

a stomrtrooper is not, neither is a psyker and so on so they dont get standard gear

the only thing they would get is stuff they need for mission, e.g. gravchuts



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:52 AM

 

Using the standard carry guidelines, you can carry only one two-handed weapon (i.e. a basic weapon), and a staff is one. Hence no lasgun.

Unless something's changed in Only War (I honestly can't be bothered to dig out the rulebook at the moment, I apologize for being lazy as hell, it's 3 AM, give me a break), there is nothing preventing you from carrying a both a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon.

You can only use a two-handed weapon if you have both your hands free. But holding your staff in one hand and a pistol in the other should be fine. Another option if you have an antagonistic GM would be to simply holster either.

I would never, ever, ever expect a Sanctioned Psyker to actually use their staff in melee, anyway, except perhaps as a last resort, but by then, the Tyranids are already chewing on your face. I've only ever seen the staff of Sanctioned Psykers as a sign of authority, as an identifier of the Scholastia Psykana, or as a Psy-Focus.

One of the archetypical models used to portray the classic sanctioned psyker specifically holds the staff in one hand while shooting with a laspistol in the other.

Edit: Also, laspistols and lasguns are two different things. Once I realized that you said lasguns, I'm no longer sure if you misread me or what. Because obviously, there would be difficulties holding a Staff while also using a Lasgun, for the same reason it would be hard to use a Staff while holding a Laspistol. But to hold a staff and use a laspistol, there should be no issues at all.

 

 

Yes, lasGUN.

 

The carry guideliness say (logically) basically one two-handed weapon and two one-handed weapons. As you have one back and two hips.

 

A staff is a two-handed weapon, which presumably goes on your back if your han ds are full. Ergo... staff + laspistol + sword is fine. staff + pistol + another pistol is fine. Staff + lasgun is not fine.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 28 September 2013 - 01:52 AM.


#18 Fgdsfg

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 08:32 AM

 

 


 

Unless something's changed in Only War (I honestly can't be bothered to dig out the rulebook at the moment, I apologize for being lazy as hell, it's 3 AM, give me a break), there is nothing preventing you from carrying a both a two-handed weapon and a one-handed weapon.

You can only use a two-handed weapon if you have both your hands free. But holding your staff in one hand and a pistol in the other should be fine. Another option if you have an antagonistic GM would be to simply holster either.

I would never, ever, ever expect a Sanctioned Psyker to actually use their staff in melee, anyway, except perhaps as a last resort, but by then, the Tyranids are already chewing on your face. I've only ever seen the staff of Sanctioned Psykers as a sign of authority, as an identifier of the Scholastia Psykana, or as a Psy-Focus.

One of the archetypical models used to portray the classic sanctioned psyker specifically holds the staff in one hand while shooting with a laspistol in the other.

Edit: Also, laspistols and lasguns are two different things. Once I realized that you said lasguns, I'm no longer sure if you misread me or what. Because obviously, there would be difficulties holding a Staff while also using a Lasgun, for the same reason it would be hard to use a Staff while holding a Laspistol. But to hold a staff and use a laspistol, there should be no issues at all.

 

Yes, lasGUN.

 

The carry guideliness say (logically) basically one two-handed weapon and two one-handed weapons. As you have one back and two hips.

 

A staff is a two-handed weapon, which presumably goes on your back if your han ds are full. Ergo... staff + laspistol + sword is fine. staff + pistol + another pistol is fine. Staff + lasgun is not fine.

 

For carrying? That's no problem at all. The only issue would be using it, obviously. What carrying guidelines are you referring to? All I can find is "Carrying, lifting, and pushing objects" on pg. 36 of the Only War Core Rulebook, and that tells a very different tale from what you're trying to say.

That said, it would be incredibly useless to haul a staff around in one hand and a lasgun in the other, unless you've also modified the lasgun for that to work. But on the other hand, you could just holster the staff and strap it to your back (or backpack).

I would consider a psyker with a lasgun unorthodox, but certainly not unheard of. The staffs are usually a psy-focus (by fluff; in Only War, this isn't mentioned) but a psy-focus can be almost anything; there is no inherent or clear benefit to carry such a staff in your hands, other than as a last-resort melee weapon.

While I would (personally) probably always go for the staff-and-laspistol approach, there's absolutely no reason, fluff or otherwise, why a psyker wouldn't use a lasgun if he could use it and it was offered to him (unless he has no other psy-focus on him, which should oddly enough never be an issue for Only War psykers).

 

"Optionally, especially for Mixed Regiments that recently been merged in the field, the Game Master might at his discretion choose to have members of the Component Regiments retain some or all items of their Standard Issue Equipment."

Yes, but they don't actually get it anew. The rules are there to represent fluff, and in this case, the only reason they still have that equipment is because they haven't turned it in. It doesn't mean that there's two sets of Standard Issue Equipment. Logically, they'd end up with their old equipment as well as being issues new Standard Issue Equipment, simply because they are part of a new regiment now, and thus issued that regiment's standard issue equipment, as per standard.
 

standard gear is for standard soldiers
sergeants, medic and all those roles are still normal guardsman

 

a stomrtrooper is not, neither is a psyker and so on so they dont get standard gear

the only thing they would get is stuff they need for mission, e.g. gravchuts

Why? That makes no sense at all. Support Specialists are attached to their squads, and squads are part of a regiment. Just because you come from somewhere else or that you are on loan from higher authority, doesn't mean that you don't operate under a given regiment's command structure or supply authority.

Standard gear is issued as a matter of standard, to everyone that is part of a regiment, in order to maintain a given level of operative capabilities, as judged by regiment command or Dpartmento Munitorum authority (because sometimes the regiment just has no choice; congratulations, your advanced recon regiment is now being repurposed into an artillery regiment, turn in all your cameoline cloaks, please!).

Saying that the only thing they would get is stuff they need for missions is ridiculous, because that's the reason anyone gets gear. The regiment doesn't issue gear, standard issue or otherwise, because it's fun. They issue gear, standard or specific, because that's what they think that the squad or regiment overall need to complete their mission(s).

Why would they willingly crippled themselves by not issuing standard gear to people under their command, performing missions in their name, attached to squads trained in your regimental boot camps, out of some misguided idea that "Nah, these guys are on loan from the commissariat, so they don't need silencers on their weapons" or "No way we're supplying the psyker with a gasmask! He's just on loan from the Telepathica, anyway." or "Why would we give the priest a lasgun? He's got his flamer. Since we're an artillery regiment we're not issued weapons-grade promethium, but whatever."

 

Support Specialists are part of the regiment. They just happen to come from somewhere else or have special training that cannot otherwise be acquired. They get their gear and replacement gear not from some vending station unique to each organization in the Imperium, but from the exact same regimental quartermasters as everyone else.


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#19 Nightcloak

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:47 AM

spupport specialists are attached to a regiment, they dont belong to it

they can be removed and sent somewhere else any time, thats why they have ther own gear

they have standard gear from their speciality, because thats where they belong to

 

modern military regularly attaches specialists to infantry platoons or squads

and EOD or chemical weapons expert doesnt run around with an M4 just because everyone else does, they carry pistols and specialist gear


Edited by Nightcloak, 28 September 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#20 venkelos

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:43 PM

With only Nids using psychic powers to make force fields, it would seem weird to have your carapace-wearing unit run into a fight, and watch as their trench coat-wearing Psyker Asset gets his assets handed to him because he's squishy. One can't rely on the rest of the squad to also double-duty, just to watch that one guy's tail, who they might be hoping gets shot, anyway.

 

I'm not pushing for weird stuff. It just makes sense that if the Psyker is with the Cadians, they'd kit him like a Cadian. All his "attached" status should really do is mean that he might be more likely to move, turn in his gear to the Quartermaster, and get more appropriate gear. If one thing is something he's not trained for, then he doesn't take THAT one. As for the guns, every use of his powers, no matter how important or trivial, is a small chance that he explodes, taking his buddies with him (worst case scenario, but these guys are trained to expect WCS when a Psyker is around; what Emokin did to impress Padme in Star Wars could've gotten the whole squad a date with Daemonettes in 40K), so having a laspistol, to shoot the little dregs, is advised, probably even comforting; if it backfires, a Lord of Change doesn't show up. I would think that, for the most part, the DMun would equip every guy in the squad about equal, minus "this one gets better", because otherwise they are issuing a liability.


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