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Why same same but still diffrent? / More races wanted


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#121 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

Don't use the word **** to describe choices in artistic direction you don't agree with. Using the word **** for anything other than what the word actually means is not okay.

To be clear, there is more than one definition of ****- an ex: Abusive and/or improper treatment (as in the **** of justice...or fluff).

Edited by Brother Orpheo, 09 November 2013 - 04:27 AM.

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#122 cps

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:50 PM


Don't use the word **** to describe choices in artistic direction you don't agree with. Using the word **** for anything other than what the word actually means is not okay.

To be clear, there is more than one definition of ****- an ex: Abusive and/or improper treatment (as in the **** of justice).
Yeah, and "******" also means a bundle of sticks. What's your point, exactly?

e; man, FFG's filter is overzealous. It starts with F and rhymes with maggot.

Edited by cps, 08 November 2013 - 03:51 PM.

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#123 Lynata

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:59 PM

My point was that regular people and SMs operate on completely different power levels. Physical challenges for normal humans are non-issues for SMs and you don't need mathematical rules to back that up. A narrative solution works fine.


That is entirely a matter of interpretation. And exactly why we are having a ruleset in the first place.

I mean, if you're starting there, where do you stop? Do Eldar no longer have to roll their Agility tests? Battle Sisters no longer rolling for Willpower? Because the same argument could be made there, if you are truly applying this way of thinking across the board rather than limiting it to a single character type based on nothing but interpretation.

The d100 system may have its shortcomings, but it is capable of housing all sorts of characters without Unnatural characteristics, provided one scales them cleverly and utilises the full potential of traits for fine-tuning.
(call me naive if you will :P)

Edited by Lynata, 08 November 2013 - 04:07 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#124 Adeptus Ineptus

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:14 PM

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?


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#125 Snowman0147

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:23 PM

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?

No.

 

Characters who are beyond 100 in a percentage dice game make boring characters as they only have 1% chance of failing.  That is if you consider a natural roll of 100 to be a failure.  If not then they will be successful in any roll they make.  That is why we have unnatural characteristics as it still allows a chance of failure which makes it more interesting.



#126 Lynata

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

 

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?

It's close to what I figured - provided we're also doing away with Toughness Bonus as skin armour for everyone (though this is a different discussion I guess).

One weakness of the d100 system is, admittedly, that the gaps between the various types of characters and creatures as well as their level advancements should not be too large, which is why I was suggesting to have character advancements be smaller steps.

Basically, an average human starts with ~30 Strength and Toughness
His characteristics advances could be five times +3, so that they'd cap out at 45.

Then, you can have Space Marines start at ~50
Their characteristics advances might only be +2, so that they cap out at 60.

Notable difference between their range without breaking test difficulties, as there's still a lot of room to the top. :)

 

 

 

Characters who are beyond 100 in a percentage dice game make boring characters as they only have 1% chance of failing. 

 

Hum? 40+2d10 would be 60 - although level ups would bring such characters dangerously close to the top, which is why I'd rather suggest the above ...


Edited by Lynata, 08 November 2013 - 04:26 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#127 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

So can we agree on 40 + 2D10 for strength and toughness for Space Marines?

In my games, normal Humans begin with 2d5+27 (base, which can be increased through Advances), capping at 55. Space Marines begin with 2d5+37 (same), capping at 65. A Space Marine wearing Power Armour will boost their Strength, their situational awareness, their resilience, their ability to ignore injury effects, and etc.

My point is in my opinion, outside of their Power Armour, Space Marines are augmented Humans, but still Human.

Edited by Brother Orpheo, 08 November 2013 - 05:56 PM.

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#128 Snowman0147

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:15 PM

Leveling up space marines starting 40+2d10 would bring them close to a hundred.  Then boosting skills would push them over the edge at worst case.

 

Your stats look decent with your second post, but why replace unnaturals when they had been working so well in the first place?



#129 Lynata

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:42 PM

Your stats look decent with your second post, but why replace unnaturals when they had been working so well in the first place?

 

Did they really, though? I think it may just not be as evident because they did not have to work very often.

 

Strength and Toughness tests are something that does not occur very often in the first place, and when they did all you saw was humans or Space Marines rolling their tests in a sensible area of success or failure. It did not attract attention because in this RPG, both types of characters are generally segregated away, neatly put into their own little power corners of the universe, so that you won't even get to situations where a strong or tough human has a better chance succeeding on their test than a Space Marine (note: "better" chance, not just "a" chance).

 

This, however, will not work in a Unified Ruleset, at least not when one of our goals is to create the basis for mixed parties the likes of which exist in various codex events and novel stories.

 

The true primary effects of Unnatural Strength and Toughness were not actually making the characters more likely to succeed at the appropriate tests, but merely a +4 bonus to melee damage, and breaking the combat/injury mechanic by exceeding the comfort zone for TB skin armour, in turn necessitating an overhaul of Astartes weapons (with the bolter going from 2d10 to 2d10+5, then to 1d10+9), the implementation of the Felling quality, and the magical damage boost in Horde rules.


Edited by Lynata, 08 November 2013 - 05:48 PM.

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previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#130 Adeptus Ineptus

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:31 AM

So 1 yes and 2 no.
I think trying to keep the old system is doomed if we want Space Marines and abhumans.
If we keep humans at 20+2d10 then give the Emperors finest 25+2d10 for most stats and 30+2d10 for strength and toughness and then add the +20 strength for power armor have I made something noone really likes?



#131 AtoMaki

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:36 AM

My point is in my opinion, outside of their Power Armour, Space Marines are augmented Humans, but still Human.

 

They are metahumans, actually. It is like expecting your dog to be as strong as a bear just because they are both animals. 

 

Also, don't Unnatutral Characteristics affect Skill tests too? Because that +4 DoS for jumping/climbing/swimming is a pretty big deal...

 

Edit:

And if we increased the base stats, then how would we handle the really big guys like Greater Daemons or Tyranid Monstrous Creatures? 100+ characteristic values? 


Edited by AtoMaki, 09 November 2013 - 03:38 AM.


#132 Tom Cruise

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 04:16 AM

The only characteristic values that really break down post 100 are WS and BS, the rest can reasonably be handled with modifiers. 



#133 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 04:17 AM

So 1 yes and 2 no.
I think trying to keep the old system is doomed if we want Space Marines and abhumans.
If we keep humans at 20+2d10 then give the Emperors finest 25+2d10 for most stats and 30+2d10 for strength and toughness and then add the +20 strength for power armor have I made something noone really likes?

Is there any particular reason Power Armour has to buff Strength +20, other than the fact that's what has gone before in all the other lines? Why not just +10? I'd compromise with +15- not that TT is a perfect gauge, but Space Marines are just a short and curly width over 16% stronger than Guardsmen, and that's with their Power Armour on.

I'm also making faces at the assumption that Space Marines are inherently more Intelligent, Perceptive, Willful, and...Fellowshippy than us regular Humans. Sure, they get hypno-doctrination headgear, but I think that would be better reflected in the Skills and Talents they have access to rather than raw ability. I'd say they're definitely more strong, tough, and agile than regular Humans, simply through strict training regimens. So 2d10+20 for non-physical stats and 2d10+28 for the physical stats, then they put on thick protective armour for added resilience and the +15 strength buff.

Next, why make anything cost more XP for Space Marines? Because...why? Because they're dumber and can't learns duh stuff wut we does? No. That doesn't make any sense. You want things to be "balanced" (so to speak) then XP costs have to be the same across the board (insofar as a bookworm Acolyte pays 100 XP for Flufflore 101, then a Librarian pays the same 100 XP). Again coming back to the Skills and Talents they have access to. Some Skills and Talents should probably be unattainable by Humans, and reserved for Astartes...True Grit, maybe? Marines got their "leg up" when the stat dice were rolling, they should have that edge all the way out to the finish line. Perhaps even farther than that.

Edited by Brother Orpheo, 09 November 2013 - 04:35 AM.

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#134 Adeptus Ineptus

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 05:14 AM

There is no reason to keep power armor at +20 so +10 is fine.

As Space Marines are made from hand picked applicants and then upgraded and trained I see a very good reason for that +5 to the other stats (ok so Fellowship is iffy).

I haven't said Space Marines should pay more for skills and talents but I did suggest it cost xp to start as one.



#135 AtoMaki

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 05:21 AM

I dunno, but Space Marines should be at least 15% better than normal humans. So in a D100 system, if the Human average is 30, then the Space Marine average is 45. This should apply to every characteristic except Intelligence and Fellowship. 



#136 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 09:45 AM

Sorry Adeptus...I used a lot of "yous"; nothing I wrote was directed at anyone in particular, and all the "yous" were general statements. I wrote that at 4:30 in the a-m and was getting a bit sloppy. And Ato: you are talking about Space Marines being 15% better than Humans...but I think you mean overall (like I indicated) but I actually meant something different which is reflected in the base # added to stat dice (quick math at 4 am? nope! I'm not gonna!) It shouldn't be 2d10+28 it should be 2d10+26. Oops.


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#137 Lynata

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:12 AM

I'm also making faces at the assumption that Space Marines are inherently more Intelligent, Perceptive, Willful, and...Fellowshippy than us regular Humans. Sure, they get hypno-doctrination headgear, but I think that would be better reflected in the Skills and Talents they have access to rather than raw ability.

 

Hmmh. I'd say at least the Willpower bonus is fine, simply due to the way they've grown up and the intense training. Regard it like a sort of "natural Homeworld modifier", perhaps, similar to what some human characters can have. It definitively should be represented (just like some human characters should have it), and I'd rather tone down the number of skills and talents they (or anyone else!) start with for sake of not filling character sheets with two dozen traits before the game has even begun. Honestly, as I began playing Deathwatch, all those implant rules were a nightmare to sift through! Way too much stuff to remember ...

 

Fellowship should probably depend on the Chapter, though. I could certainly believe there are some who would enjoy a bonus, just like there would be some who would be off worse than some humans.

 

 

Next, why make anything cost more XP for Space Marines? Because...why? Because they're dumber and can't learns duh stuff wut we does?

 

Come to think of it, one could make an argument about how Marines are already close to their limit once they begin play, and thus have to "pay more" for pushing themselves further. That was my thinking behind giving them smaller Toughness and Strength advances (+2 instead of +3), anyways, though I could also see it being applied to xp costs, and to certain skills or talents.

 

It probably depends on what one would have them start out with, and how one envisions their role in a high level campaign - essentially those exceptional humans that are the player characters having a chance to sort of catch up with them, at least in some areas (though I could also see the possibility of using rare/expensive bionics to come close to bridging even that gap in Strength and/or Toughness a la Colonel Straken).

 

This could of course be a non-issue if we consider that some archetypes of human characters such as Inquisitors or Storm Troopers could have a somewhat similar range of skills and talents right off the bat.


Edited by Lynata, 09 November 2013 - 10:17 AM.

current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#138 Tom Cruise

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:00 AM

Honestly, I don't think different XP rates are going to be too enjoyable for the players. The result is that your Space Marine characters will start out superior, but as the game goes on, gradually lose their edge until they're actually worse than the humans save for a few minor advantages.

 

Fun is an important consideration, and artificially limiting a character's potential like that isn't really all that fun.


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#139 Lynata

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

Oh, no, no, no - I'm not proposing the character ending up worse, ever (at least not in the areas where Marines should, by all rights, have an edge) just that they "close distance" the closer they get to the highest level.

 

Come to think of it, though, this may be what FFG tried with the BoM Battle Sister's advancement scheme, and considering how that worked out, maybe it really was a bad idea.

 

Ultimately, all that matters is that everyone can have fun in their chosen specialisation, and the setting offers sufficient potential for humans to surpass Marines in other aspects of combat (primarily ranged combat, though I could also think of Assassins whose efficiency is based on agility rather than strength). We'd just need a system to support this notion. :)


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)




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