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#1 jackman51

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:13 AM

Q: If Kate Winthrop has an explored token in the same location as a gate that has a monster surge, and her Science! ability cancels the surge, is an uprising token added to the Deep One Rising track?

A: Yes.

 

From the FAQ.

 

I found this reply to be seemingly in error as I did not think monster surges caused a DOR increase in the first place. She is not preventing a gate from opening in this case so why the marker?


Edited by jackman51, 22 September 2013 - 10:13 AM.


#2 Julia

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:52 PM

No, it's correct. The surge is caused by a gate opening on an already existing gate. Kate prevents this to happen, hence the DOR


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#3 The Professor

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:56 PM

jackman51,

 

     The gate cannot open because of Kate ~ which drives the DOR...the fact that she also prevents the Monster Surge is an added benefit to the Investigators.


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#4 jackman51

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:59 PM

Think I understand now.


Edited by jackman51, 22 September 2013 - 08:58 PM.


#5 subochre

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:41 PM

I mean, I definitely understand where you're coming from.  On a counterfactual approach to causal explanation, it seems like Kate didn't prevent a gate from opening unless a gate would have opened in her absence. 

 

But the opposite argument could also be made; the existing gate didn't prevent it because she was there.  So, which of these is what happened?  There's actually an important difference between the two; if the new gate had been prevented by Kate, then the DOR track goes up but nothing else happens.  If it had been prevented by the existing gate, then there's a surge, and monsters jump out of all of the other open gates.  This is because, despite the FAQ's lax choice of words, Kate doesn't have the ability to "cancel monster surges" per se, all she can do is keep monsters (and gates) from appearing in her location.

 

So really, it's usually a very good thing that her gatebouncing ability kicks in even before the game checks to see whether there's already a gate there.


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#6 jackman51

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

On a counterfactual approach to causal explanation, it seems like Kate didn't prevent a gate from opening unless a gate would have opened in her absence. 

 

Yeah this was my first thought as well and I actually posted a reply that said as much before thinking it over a bit more.

 

Apparently a second gate does open even if there is one already present and that is what is causing the monster surge. Kate prevents that second gate so hence the DOR increase.



#7 The Professor

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:53 PM

Well, it's even more convoluted than that...it's not so much that a 2nd gate opens (because it can't), but that a gate at all attempted to open (yes, it's the 2nd one for the location, but it's a matter of semantics) at the location. 

 

P.S. to jackman51 ~ I've responded to your series of inquiries over at bgg.


Edited by The Professor, 24 September 2013 - 03:53 PM.

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#8 jackman51

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:02 PM

Yes I saw the reply--am considering making a purchase--will let you know. I hope everyone here knows about your work. Darn it though --I hate painting and I must also consider how I will store the game once I am using your stuff since I wouldn't want to take it down anymore either.


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#9 The Professor

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:16 PM

jackman51 ~ I appreciate you taking the time to review the e-mail.  If you have any follow-up questions, please don't hesitate to ask.  I'll start the process this weekend of moving the pictures, write-ups, etc. to a site.

 

Cheers,

Joe


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#10 Julia

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

jackman51 ~ I appreciate you taking the time to review the e-mail.  If you have any follow-up questions, please don't hesitate to ask.  I'll start the process this weekend of moving the pictures, write-ups, etc. to a site.

 

These are great news Joe!!! Congrats!


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#11 The Professor

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 03:33 AM

Julia,

 

     Thank you ~ it's been on-and-off the back burner for awhile, but with the shipments having arrived in Canada, England, Germany, and Ireland, (with Italy next!) I can finally focus on this aspect!

 

Ciao,

Joe


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#12 Gnomeschool

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:53 AM

I still don't get why there's a DOR increase.

Did Kate Whinthrop get an errata that a uprising token is added every time her ability is used or something?

This is the only explanation I can find... but I can't find such an errata for her.

Help! :)



#13 ZoogyStardust

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 06:34 AM

Actually, in this case, it's not Kate who prevents the gate opening, it's the presence of a previous gate at the same location.

 

But actually, it doesn't really matter as, whenever a gate is prevented from opening, you place a token on the DOR. It doesn't matter if it's because of Kate, a sealed location or because there is already a gate. As soon as a gate should open and can't => DOR.

 

Kate only prevents monster surge if she is at the location where the gate can't open.

 

For exemple :

Kate just emerged from a gate in the woods, thanks to a lucky otherworldly encounter. During the Mythos phase, a card mentionning the opening of a gate in the woods is drawn. The gate can't open here, as there's already one. You add a token to the DOR, and should normally proceed to the surge. But as Kate prevents monsters from appearing in her location, the surge can't even start, and of course, if it doesn't start, it doesn't happens at all.

 

Now, if Kate has emerged from a gate at the black cave, not from the gate in the woods, and the same as above happens. The gate is still prevented from opening in the woods, as there is already one. But the monster surge occurs, as it starts in the woods, not in the black cave. In this case, Kate just prevents a monster from appearing on her location, at the black cave.


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#14 Gnomeschool

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:22 AM

Ah, I confused Deep One Rising Track with the Great Old One Rising Track (Doom Track), since I've never played Insmouth.

 

Holy cow, I just thought we've played this game wrong for years. :D

 

Thanks for your quick answer. :)



#15 Tibs

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:02 PM

But actually, it doesn't really matter as, whenever a gate is prevented from opening, you place a token on the DOR. It doesn't matter if it's because of Kate, a sealed location or because there is already a gate. As soon as a gate should open and can't => DOR.

 

No, this is not right. A DOR token is not added in the case of a monster surge because a gate is already there. Thus the confusion.



#16 ZoogyStardust

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 01:30 PM

Are you sure :blink: ?

As per the rules : "Each time a gate is prevented from opening". Actually, the gate which is already in the location prevents the opening of another gate that turn - it doesn't matter if Kate is there or not, the Mythos card says that a gate should open, and none actually does. Well, it's how we understood it and we always played it like this since we started to use IH...

 

It seems so weird, it looks so favorable for the investigators and actually makes the game way easier if no token are added to the DOR in this case.... No, it can't be, AH is designed to be mean with players, anything that make our life easier is obviously a mistake :lol: !

I want an errata ! A token... no, wait two tokens on the DOR for each monster surge ! *sigh of relief* That way it's more arkhamish :D !


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#17 Musha Shukou

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 06:58 PM

Yes, we are all sure. This has been discussed at great length. It's more about if you cancel the effects of a gate opening than the gate actually opening at a location, then you add a DOR token. There are 3 things that can happen when a gate opens depending on the situation, or the status of the location where the gate is being opened: 1) gate opens, 2) monster surge, 3) nothing. The DOR token is only added when that 3rd result of "nothing" is seen, as that means the mythos forces have been prevented.

 

We are all already well aware of how option 1 works in relation to DOR tokens: If a mythos card tells you that a gate opens at location X, and there's nothing else at location X, then you put a gate token at location X. Nothing was prevented, do not add a DOR token.

 

If a mythos card tells you that a gate opens at location X, but there's already a gate at location X, then a monster surge occurs. A gate might not actually be opening at that location, since there is already a gate open there, but the effects of that gate opening are not being prevented at all. "The dimensional forces are assaulting Arkham" (AH rulebook, p. 9) one way or another, be it by opening a gate or by flooding Arkham with monsters. If those dimensional forces are stopped then you add a DOR token.

 

There aren't a whole lot of ways that these dimensional forces can be stopped, but they do exist, and some are a little intricate, such as indicated by the OP. The main way, of course, is by Elder Sign. The only other ways I can think of are caused by Kate Winthrop's special ability.

 - If a gate would open at location X, but Kate is at location X, then it is prevented; add a DOR.

 - If Kate is at a location with an Elder Sign where a gate burst would happen, it is prevented; add a DOR.

 - If Kate is at a location with an open gate when a monster surge occurs at that gate (note: she would  have to have an explored token for this to work), the monster surge is prevented; add a DOR.


Edited by Musha Shukou, 23 December 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#18 ZoogyStardust

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:56 PM

Thank you !

That's pretty different from what is printed in IH rulebook, indeed, as there is no reference to monster surges there, just gate opening or not (IH p8).

I don't recall of anything about it - except for Kate's ability clarification - in the FAQ & erratas (though iirc, those may be a little outdated), but this should definitely be added (or modified in reprints of IH - your wording is far better, both clearer and generic). Because, if I get it right, and even if, for now, only Kate special ability have that effect (but for the purpose of custom content or if they decide at some point to farther expand the game), anytime a monster surge would be prevented, a token would be added to the DOR also, as it falls into the "3) nothing" category.


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#19 Musha Shukou

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:05 AM

Because, if I get it right, and even if, for now, only Kate special ability have that effect (but for the purpose of custom content or if they decide at some point to farther expand the game), anytime a monster surge would be prevented, a token would be added to the DOR also, as it falls into the "3) nothing" category.

Other than Kate's ability, are there any other ways to prevent a monster surge? Cause as it stands now, I believe that that is the case - anytime a monster surge is prevented, you add a DOR. Since, I believe, the only way to prevent a monster surge is with Kate's special ability, but only under those very specific circumstances.



#20 Julia

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:27 AM

Other than Kate's ability, are there any other ways to prevent a monster surge? Cause as it stands now, I believe that that is the case - anytime a monster surge is prevented, you add a DOR. Since, I believe, the only way to prevent a monster surge is with Kate's special ability, but only under those very specific circumstances.

 

Elder Sign Pendant comes to mind.


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