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overlord so weak and errata beat up in a dead body


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#1 thitan

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:54 PM

the overlord is so weak. in a few matches is easy to see that. the heroes have advantage of this in their heroes feat, rest action, and revives hero actions.

the errata is decreased further the power of the cards of bloodlust, Reinforce and unholy ritual. this was necessary??and had gave more advantages for the heroes in many quests???

this debuff in cards was necessary???

 



#2 Kunzite

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:25 PM

as an OL that is playing with no erratas right now, there might be good reason for them. There is a combo with bloodlust, blood rage, unholy ritual and reinforce that is VERY effective. Even I, the OL, feel like it might need some kind of errata, but I don't feel they all need to be cut like that. Some of the quests are overly errata-ed in favor of the heroes, I agree. Sometimes it's needed.

 

And I DON'T think the OL is underpowered. It just takes a person willing to play the role. The OL loses ALOT. So the person playing the OL needs a tough skin. The OL can seem underwhelming, but then suddenly be unstoppable. You have to wait for it and plan for it. After playing with the OL's big guns, I look forward to playing with the "less" powerful things to see if I can step up to the challenge. The OL is far more powerful then people like to give him credit for when paired with someone willing to give him the time to plan.


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#3 AltWren

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:12 PM

I'm with Thitan.  Seems that the only things that ever get fixed lower the OLs power, while all the Heroes advantages continue unchecked.  OL had an advantage in Castle Daerion?  Can't have that, can we...

 

I'm going to wait for the next set of erratas and faqs before I play again.



#4 Shooock

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:51 AM

OL have a lot of rules not sense...

why heroes can attack 2 time and monster no?, why heroes can revive each time, and OL have 1 monster with reinforcement?

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?... Why  heroes can used always relique, and OL 1 for lieutenant (and for most of the matches we have 1 lieutenant and some only in the second encounter)

 

 

A lot of question - a lot of not sense... and FFG don't listen...



#5 poet1001

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:04 AM

Hopefully OL weakness will be fixed with Trollfens expansion that introduces new OL class - infector, and lieutenants pacs that allow summon lieutenants to any quest.



#6 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:54 AM

the overlord need spend much xp to buy one the level 3 card. and the effect of they don't are very powerfull like the heros powers with this ERRATA.



#7 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:59 AM

Hopefully OL weakness will be fixed with Trollfens expansion that introduces new OL class - infector, and lieutenants pacs that allow summon lieutenants to any quest.

3 expansions after the overlord get a buff, this is like the conversion kit that the monster are very good. you never will use the things on the core game again, because they are very weak.

I am using a little rule that put a little vantage for the overlord.
the overlord can 1 time in his turn discard one overlord card form your hand to draw another ovelord card from the top of the deck.


Edited by thitan, 12 September 2013 - 05:00 AM.


#8 Steve-O

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:18 AM

OL have a lot of rules not sense...

why heroes can attack 2 time and monster no?

 

Play with a house rule that says monsters can attack twice per turn and find out.  I've heard of several groups who missed that rule and allowed monsters to attack twice, the result is so far unanimously that the OL becomes unstoppable.

 

why heroes can revive each time, and OL have 1 monster with reinforcement?

 

Again, play with house rules to allow greater reinforcements and see how it works out for you.  Maybe you'll discover there's a good reason they wrote it the way they did.

 

 

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Fury of Undeath requires an action AND to exhaust the card, in addition to the 1 fatigue cost.  This means it can only be used once per turn and it soaks one of the hero's two actions in the process.

 

As for nerfing OL cards, I mostly prefer to play cards as written unless there's an obvious problem.  If you don't like the errata, don't use them.

 

 

In order to be successful, the Overlord must be ruthless.  He must play to win at every opportunity and he must not be afraid of making cheesy moves.  It can be hard sometimes, being one against many heroes.  The inclination is to put up a fight, but not so much that it starts to annoy the other players.  If you want to win, you have to shake that.

 

It also helps to learn how to play the players.  If the warrior loves to chase goblins and kill them, have your goblins run off to odd corners of the map to draw the hero out of position.  Things like that.  If the hero players have habits in this game, try to find ways to exploit those habits to slow them down.

 

Another thing that would probably help is to rotate who plays the OL.  If you don't like it, it gives you some relief and lets you win as a hero sometimes.  More importantly, it gives everyone a better perspective on the game.  Maybe one of your friends will do something as OL that will make you realize the potential you've been missing.

 

Descent has a bad reputation of appearing unbalanced one way or the other to new player groups.  I've heard plenty of people saying the OL is too weak, but I've heard just as many saying he's OP.  The only thing I can say to that is, having played 1E for many years and 2E since release, I find the win ratio to be relatively even.  It takes more than a few plays, though, to get into the swing.



#9 Kunzite

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:37 AM

Do you OLs take time to play before your games?

 

Have you OLs tried switching out roles to see if you are better suited for a hero role and someone else better for the OL?

 

Have you OLs tried to looking for plot ideas on this and other forms to become better?

 

As Steve-o just said, You have to be ruthless, without reserve and take advantage at every moment. The OL roll is VERY doable. You have to have the mind to do it though and you have to be willing to take losses, allot, to win the over all game. I have said before and I will say again, My play with NO fools for heroes. They have won 6 games and I have won 3. We have a rumor and the final left and I honestly think we, heroes and OL, are pretty even. I have a combo going that is killer and they have awesome things. I am over powered as the OL and they are over powered as heroes. It works. The final is going to be insane. BUT I have to endear SIX losses and only three wins. I got a little salty sometimes, but we kept playing and now my set up is worth it. No relics, but all awesome OL cards. 

 

Something that helps tension in our group is doing things that are silly. Bread, one of my heroes, reads the flavor. He often makes silly voices. He also makes voices for some of my monsters. It's great! (particularly the kobolds and goblins). You are evil. Laugh evily, loom over your cards and grin uncomfortably at the player about to move while fiddling with your cards.

 

Physiology works great. Talk with your heroes. Encourage them to do stupid things. Encourage them to move into spaces you have traps in, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE CARD! ^.~ it works great. I do so when I have the card too, so my heroes never know when I have something up my sleeve.

 

Don't despair, OLs. That's the hero's job.


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#10 Robin

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:11 AM

Up to now, I have seen no convincing proof that the game is globally unbalanced, either in favour of the OL or in favour of the heroes.

 

The game is conditioned by so many factors that I do believe that it is quite impossible to analyse its balance globally and - a fortiori - to find quests that are perfectly balanced.

 

So, I do think that, in fine :

 

Balance is a myth and the debates about it are marked by a lot of futility

 

General statements about it are thus of the domain of beliefs, founded on partial and anecdotical experiences.

 

In the case of Descent, it seems to be a quasi-obsessional topic, that takes a place that I don't remember I  ever have seen with other games (e.g. RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman, Advanced Squad Leader, which are among the games I that I play and with which forums I interact).

I am still interested about the deep reasons of the phenomenon. I now have nearly made my mind that the (recurrent) debates about Descent being unbalanced are more about players venting their frustrations than about reaching to serious conclusions.


Edited by Robin, 12 September 2013 - 07:12 AM.

An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#11 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:45 AM

the balance

 

heroes                               overlord

2 atack per turn =     large group monsters(each of monster can do the same damage of one hero red+blue)

stand up            =      reinforcement

stamina              =     overlord cards(that give action like the fatigue)

itens                  =       overlord only get buff in act II

heroic feat         =       ---overlord don't have nothing-----

 

the problem is the heroic feat that each hero have and the overlord don't have nothing to balance. the heroic feat of each hero, it can be used one time per encounter this give many disvantage in quest. because the heroic feat is much strong. and each hero can use 2 times per quest 1 in encouter 1 and another in 2.


Edited by thitan, 12 September 2013 - 07:59 AM.


#12 willmanx

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:43 AM

each adventure has its own setting and each side has its own objective. This isn't a dungeon crawling game based on fight. You may not Discuss balance based on combat talents.

 

Example : My last game on friday with the Twin Idols --- a one shot adventure with the highest XP setting (legend ? I don't remember the correct name) where I tried to focus as OL on sabotage cards... Very effective on encounter 1, but encounter 2 was outdoor although 4 of my 15 cards were activated when looting or opening a door... You don't have to loot outside a campaign, and there's no door in outdoor setting. I was weaker than I thought. Moreover the one shot setting allow players to choose their stuff among items ... so as to match and do excellent combo with their talents... deadly :)

 

 

PS : by the way Act 2 monsters are strong.



#13 Shooock

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:47 AM

the balance

 

heroes                               overlord

2 atack per turn =     large group monsters(each of monster can do the same damage of one hero red+blue)

stand up            =      reinforcement

stamina              =     overlord cards(that give action like the fatigue)

itens                  =       overlord only get buff in act II

heroic feat         =       ---overlord don't have nothing-----

 

the problem is the heroic feat that each hero have and the overlord don't have nothing to balance. the heroic feat of each hero, it can be used one time per encounter this give many disvantage in quest. because the heroic feat is much strong. and each hero can use 2 times per quest 1 in encouter 1 and another in 2.

 

"

 

heroes                               overlord

2 attack per turn =     large group monsters (= little monster are useless)

stand up             =     reinforcement (a lot of quest you have 1 reinforce < 4 heroes)

stamina              =     overlord cards (fatique have regen with attack, talent or action, overlord card no have regen)

items                   =     overlord only get buff in act II (minion monster no have buff, become more useless

 

 

And with expansion and new quest, heroes have other relique, more gold and other xp... more quest you do and  more powerfull become heroes...

 

I think for balancing, must allow the monsters to equip them too ...


Edited by Shooock, 12 September 2013 - 08:48 AM.


#14 griton

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:42 AM

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Make sure you're playing with the Familiar rules correctly. Almost every time I've seen people complain about Fury of Undeath being overpowered, they are either treating the Reanimate like a full hero and allowing 2 attacks or playing the card wrong. Familiars only get 1 move action + whatever their card says (In the case of the Reanimate, it adds 1 attack). So the Reanimate only has 1 Move Action, 1 Attack Action and that's it. No Opening doors, searching, double moving, double attacking, etc. It also requires both an action and to be exhausted (so it can't be used twice).

 

Tactically, keeping the Necromancer at high fatigue levels can help. You can also target the Reanimate with any card that would target a hero, and since it automatically fails any attribute tests, it can be taken out pretty quickly with the various conditions. Additionally, don't forget that Dark Charm is a guaranteed success against the reanimate, who can often be the strongest damage dealer early on.



#15 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

stamina              =     overlord cards (fatique have regen with attack, talent or action, overlord card no have regen)


 

 you draw one overlord card 1 time automatically in the begin of your turn


Edited by thitan, 12 September 2013 - 10:32 AM.


#16 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:27 AM

next time that would play i will try

 

rules for balancing descent

1) once per turn on your turn the ovelord can discard a card to draw another overlord card.
2) the maximum of cards in overlord hand is 6. he can don't activate a group of monsters for get a overlord card.
3) the overlord starts every encounter with markers equal to the number of heroes
       it may
       -spend a marker to make an action that extra attack with a monster. (he can't do this with the same monster on the same turn)
       -spend a marker to draw a overlord card from the top of the deck.


Edited by thitan, 12 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.


#17 vendettarock

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:45 PM

maybe with liutenant´s deck mechanic, the OL will be stronger


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#18 thitan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:23 PM

maybe with liutenant´s deck mechanic, the OL will be stronger

yes



#19 AltWren

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:26 PM

In the case of Descent, it seems to be a quasi-obsessional topic, that takes a place that I don't remember I  ever have seen with other games (e.g. RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman, Advanced Squad Leader, which are among the games I that I play and with which forums I interact).

I am still interested about the deep reasons of the phenomenon. I now have nearly made my mind that the (recurrent) debates about Descent being unbalanced are more about players venting their frustrations than about reaching to serious conclusions.

 

Could the fact that, in comparison to RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman and Advanced Squad Leader, this conversation takes place so often and so many people come to vent frustration not indicate there may indeed be some global problem?

 

And anecdotial experiences are completely related to determining if a game is balanced or not.  It's examinig what's occuring when the game is played.  Seems several players are having less than optimal experiences.



#20 Shooock

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:06 PM

 

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Make sure you're playing with the Familiar rules correctly. Almost every time I've seen people complain about Fury of Undeath being overpowered, they are either treating the Reanimate like a full hero and allowing 2 attacks or playing the card wrong. Familiars only get 1 move action + whatever their card says (In the case of the Reanimate, it adds 1 attack). So the Reanimate only has 1 Move Action, 1 Attack Action and that's it. No Opening doors, searching, double moving, double attacking, etc. It also requires both an action and to be exhausted (so it can't be used twice).

 

Tactically, keeping the Necromancer at high fatigue levels can help. You can also target the Reanimate with any card that would target a hero, and since it automatically fails any attribute tests, it can be taken out pretty quickly with the various conditions. Additionally, don't forget that Dark Charm is a guaranteed success against the reanimate, who can often be the strongest damage dealer early on.

 

 

Sorry i confused with Army of Death... a skill without exauste and in combo with Vampiric Blood can be trigger 2 time for round..

 

and after familiar can do other action... omg this must not be faqed?


Edited by Shooock, 12 September 2013 - 04:07 PM.





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