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Just can't find a balance to this game


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#21 Cursain

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:51 PM

 

"I'm going to move this enemy with my ability, but there are two more enemies behind him, so he gets flung 7 squares away from where he was."

 

As far as I am aware (take with a grain of salt unless someone can point to confirming / contradicting official rules), moving and placing are different mechanics with respect to what happens when there isn't an available place to go. When "placing" (such as reinforcing, special quest rules, or for some other self-movement abilities) then you follow the "place in nearest empty space" rule if you can't place them in the target one. Most abilities that change where an enemy figure is use the word "move". Moves DO NOT follow the "place in nearest empty space" rule, so if there is no valid place to be moved to, you just don't get to move them.

 

 

The web comment is a reference to the rule that if you get webbed during your movement (i.e. via the web trap card) even though you are technically immobilized you still get to finish your movement as normal; which does not make any sense and seriously reduces the effectiveness of the card.

The web comment refers to using the Web Trap to immobilize.  Immoblize says the hero may not get movement points, but it does not end the current move action, so a character like Silhouette who is webbed in the first step of her 10 move heroic still gets to finish the other 9 moves and pick up all treasures she passes, as per her Heroic.  Then the immoblize takes affect.

 

This is not QUITE correct. You have to understand that there is a difference between Move Actions and other movement. According to the FAQ, if you are immobilized during a normal Move Action, you immediately stop moving and lose all of your remaining movement points. If you are using some other method that allows you to move that is NOT a move action (such as Silhouette's Heroic Feat, as you mention, or basically any other form of movement that Immobilize doesn't restrict, which are relatively rare), then that rule applies and you can finish your movement because Immobilize wouldn't have prevented it in the first place.

 

Also, if you feel this is too overpowered, it's a pretty simple house rule to change Immobilized to also include ALL movement, and one that PROBABLY wouldn't be too game-breaking. Just make sure you discuss it with the rest of the group beforehand.

 

 

The problem with Silhouette's heroic feat is the fact she get's free search actions.  That can allow her to get 4-5 actions in one turn.  It's very unbalanced.



#22 AltWren

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:01 PM

(quoting is getting a little large, so I'm just going to call names out.)

 

Griton - The moving quote refers to Steelhorns, who can move a figure out of his way when he moves into it.  However, if the figure is a large one, and there are other figures behind it, there may not be available space nearby.  The figure is then 'flung' as far as it needs to be to find a spot to stand in, no matter how much ground it ends up covering.

 

As for the Silhouette move heroic ending, I've read elsewhere that she does indeed continue her movement.  Perhaps she doesn't actually; I can't be sure.  Rules seem to swing back and forth, with no regard for balance or common sense, or in some cases even what is written in the rules.  As said, my group concluded this is about finding the newest exploit to the rules each day.

 

 

Cursain - Even more fun when she's the Treasure Hunter and gets to look at two cards.  Move action, 4 fatigue, compass, heroic, oh look, 20 movement in one turn.  16 looks at treasure in a 12 card deck means she definitely gets the best treasures!  Team her up with that healer who gets two free treasure cards for even more fun.  I think it's possible to hit 300 gold each encounter if you try hard enough!


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#23 Cursain

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

Yea, it's pretty much garbage.  The "Game Night" I host starts on the 21st with a new campaign.  If she get's chosen, I think some house rule is going to be made.  Her special is so much better than the majority of the scouts that she's almost a glaring beacon of Choose Me.

 

FFG, you screwed up pretty bad with her special.  It's glaringly broken.  Fix it please.

In quests like Cardinal's Plight, where heroes are required to search for a special tokens, it eliminates the "chance" factor completely.

 

-Cursain


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#24 Cursain

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:08 PM

Heh, if your playing with Secret Passages from the Wyrm expansion she's ultra powerful in the secret room.  She can pop her ability and search everything as "1" action, which would normally take four.

 

If FFG is taking away the OL's original errata of Blood Lust and Unholy Ritual, maybe FFG needs to tune some of these character abilities.

 

-Cursain


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#25 modernman55

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:18 PM

That is why I make my players pick their heroes at random! I don't care if you think your hero is ugly! you are playing a one-handed Orc. 


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#26 AltWren

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:55 PM

Cursain - Doesn't work in the secret room, actually.  Those are challenge tokens, not search.  I was ready for that one.

 

 

That is why I make my players pick their heroes at random! I don't care if you think your hero is ugly! you are playing a one-handed Orc. 

 

But my starting equipment is two handed...



#27 Cursain

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:01 PM

Good catch AltWren



#28 Kunzite

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:06 PM

Heh, if your playing with Secret Passages from the Wyrm expansion she's ultra powerful in the secret room.  She can pop her ability and search everything as "1" action, which would normally take four.

 

If FFG is taking away the OL's original errata of Blood Lust and Unholy Ritual, maybe FFG needs to tune some of these character abilities.

 

-Cursain

 

I love how all the erratas I hear are about how we can make the already hard task of the OL harder. I also understand that that with these cards, in particular combos, can be super powerful. Ask my heroes that tasted what it was like for me to have my entire deck in my hand at once. And I am playing a pretty dark and bloody deck (anything with "dark" or "blood" in it's name, I most likely have it). It gets pretty stupid pretty quickly. But this is late in the campaign. They have some pretty stupid good stuffs as well. I feel the playing field is even this way, even if I have won only three quests of six.


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#29 modernman55

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:12 PM

Cursain - Doesn't work in the secret room, actually.  Those are challenge tokens, not search.  I was ready for that one.

 

 

That is why I make my players pick their heroes at random! I don't care if you think your hero is ugly! you are playing a one-handed Orc. 

 

But my starting equipment is two handed...

 

That sucks, but the rules state you can roll a single blue die to make an attack when unequipped, that will have to do until you have enough gold to buy a one handed item. 

 

But.. but...

 

TRAVEL PHASE HAS BEGUN!



#30 Steve-O

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:17 AM

Also, if you feel this is too overpowered, it's a pretty simple house rule to change Immobilized to also include ALL movement, and one that PROBABLY wouldn't be too game-breaking. Just make sure you discuss it with the rest of the group beforehand.

 

I've been considering house rules to movement, in particular, of late.  Especially after reading about all this nonsense with Silhouette lately.  Broken or not, there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense (mechanically or thematically.)  I haven't implemented anything in game yet, but this is a rough outline of what I'm thinking:

 

1) A Move Action is now an instant effect that grants MP equal to Speed, over as soon as it is declared, and the figure may then spend those MPs throughout his turn as he sees fit.  The rules for interrupting a Move Action are no longer required. 

 

2) Any other ability that allows a figure to "move" likewise grants an appropriate number of MPs which may then be spent to move.  Note that some abilities will require this movement to be performed "immediately" as part of the special action.  This means the MPs granted must be spent in the course of resolving this special action, and any leftover MPs are lost if not spent.  This most notably applies to abilities that allow a figure to move during another player's turn, but also to abilities that grant "movement with benefits" such as Silhouette's hero ability, for example.

 

3) Any effect that triggers "during a Move Action" is now considered to trigger when the figure "enters a space" via spending MP.  Doesn't matter where the MP came from.

 

4) Any effect that causes a Move Action to "immediately end" is now considered to drain the figure's unspent MP pool to zero.  The figure can acquire new MPs to continue moving, if possible.  Used in the middle of a "movement with benefits" ability, such as Silhouette's, this drains all MP; those granted by the special ability as well as any unspent MPs from fatigue, etc.

 

5) Immobilize prevents the expenditure of MP.  Figures can still gain MPs from various abilities if they want, but they can't spend them, and thus cannot move.  Immobilize still reduces the figure's MP pool to zero when played, per the FAQ.

 

Notes:

- My primary goal is to eliminate the confusion over what does or does not count as movement.  This is partly motivated by thematic concerns, but I also find it difficult mechanically to keep track of what effects are or are not Move Actions in the heat of play.  The more I play, the more I want any movement to count as movement.

- There have been a couple of official FFG answers that require us to keep track of where MP came from (fatigue vs Move Action), and I really don't like that.  Even in these house rules, some special abilities will need to have their own "sub-pool" that gets spent or lost within the course of one action, but I'm trying to minimize that sort of thing as much as possible.

- Under these house rules, the only abilities that don't count as movement are those which instruct the player to remove the figure from the map and then replace it somewhere else.  Those effects are generally teleportation and the like, so I'm cool with them not counting as movement.

- There will probably be repercussions in the area of large monster movement, which I haven't fully thought through yet.

 

Feedback is welcome.

I don't mean to hi-jack your thread, AltWren, but it sounds like the majority of the issues you're having trouble with center around movement, so I thought this might be relevant.


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#31 AltWren

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

No, by all means, hi-jack away.  I was just venting when I posted this thread anyways.

 

I like these rules, and I hope FFG moves in this direction.  It allows the OL to make an attempt at stopping the movement based feats, but also still provides the players a skill check to avoid the traps.  I also like that web actually stops people, cause it's just silly the other way.  Little logical errors like that one, or figures teleporting around the map to "nearest available spaces" bother me.

 

If I was to house rule something, it would be that "nearest available space".  If there isn't an available adjacent space, your ability is blocked.  So if Steelhorns wanted to push someone but there was no room for him to move adjacent, it simply wouldn't work.  Similar with Oath of Honor.  If two people are fighting a dragon in a two space wide hall and a third in back wants to Oath of Honor, they can no longer teleport through the dragon to the other side of the hall.  They need to go to a space adjacent to the hero they target.  No space, no ability.



#32 griton

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:41 AM

Griton - The moving quote refers to Steelhorns, who can move a figure out of his way when he moves into it.  However, if the figure is a large one, and there are other figures behind it, there may not be available space nearby.  The figure is then 'flung' as far as it needs to be to find a spot to stand in, no matter how much ground it ends up covering.

Ah! Yup, that is actually one instance where it's explicit about how it works. With that in mind, it's unclear whether I was wrong about my interpretation. Is Steelhorn's movement of other figures an exception to the movement rules, or does that apply to any time you move an enemy figure (it definitely doesn't apply to moving your own figure)

 

 

As for the Silhouette move heroic ending, I've read elsewhere that she does indeed continue her movement.  Perhaps she doesn't actually; I can't be sure.  Rules seem to swing back and forth, with no regard for balance or common sense, or in some cases even what is written in the rules.  As said, my group concluded this is about finding the newest exploit to the rules each day.

Yup, you are correct with regards to Silhouette; I even pointed that out in my post ;-). The problem was that you made the reference to it using the term "Move Action", which Silhouette's Heroic Feat is not. And I just wanted to make sure that you weren't taking Silhouette's Heroic Feat's immunity to Immobilization and applying it to ALL other Move Actions as well, which would make it almost completely useless for the OL. (Instead of just useless against a few special abilities.)



#33 griton

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:45 AM

Steve-O, I quite like those rules. I've been considering something similar myself but haven't fully codified it yet. (I'm also trying to consider a house-rule for the LoS issue of the black border between tiles blocking LOS between the adjacent ones, but not to ones that would otherwise be even more difficult to hit without resorting to center-to-center; e.g. Wall to left, black border in front, space in front is not in LoS, but space directly to the left of that space is in LoS)


Edited by griton, 11 September 2013 - 10:46 AM.


#34 centralx

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

I am just going to play devil's advocate against the house rule for web trap. My argument is this game is suppose to be like a clash of super heroes battling it out. There are times when people this special can bend the rules in their feats because they're special that way. Also I feel the OL should always be considerate on the chances of pulling feats versus the use of movement actions. What's your thoughts on this?

 

 

I will say though in regards to that treasure gathering chick I would definitely house rule her movement to be less based on the size of the map. I only have the 2e and LotW and the 2e maps tend to be quite small. Especially when compared to the LotW maps. She could potentially get not only the treasures but the keys in one turn on certain maps and just ruin it. Another suggestion is go down to one heroic feat per quest and make the heroes really consider when they pop them. 



#35 Cursain

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 11:19 AM

Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Excellent job!

 

-Cursain



#36 thitan

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:58 PM

i win Cardinal's Plight like the overlord.


Edited by thitan, 11 September 2013 - 06:59 PM.

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#37 Steve-O

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:42 PM

Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but don't get too exicted.  I'm still working through the corner cases for any problems.  (Feedback or ideas are welcome if anybody has anything.)

 

For example, the idea that a Move Action is an instant effect and each MP is spent separately might imply to some that a large monster has to shrink and expand with each space it moves.  Or at least that it can if it wants to.  In fact, with no clear "interruption" effect, I'd find it difficult not to read it that way.  I'm still working on the best way to solve that.



#38 AltWren

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:45 PM

 

Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but don't get too exicted.  I'm still working through the corner cases for any problems.  (Feedback or ideas are welcome if anybody has anything.)

 

For example, the idea that a Move Action is an instant effect and each MP is spent separately might imply to some that a large monster has to shrink and expand with each space it moves.  Or at least that it can if it wants to.  In fact, with no clear "interruption" effect, I'd find it difficult not to read it that way.  I'm still working on the best way to solve that.

 

 

My OL tried to do that.  Damn Merroids were shooting all over the map.  We just yelled at him.  It solved the problem.



#39 Robin

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:46 AM

 

 

 

I've been considering house rules to movement, in particular, of late.  Especially after reading about all this nonsense with Silhouette lately.  Broken or not, there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense (mechanically or thematically.) 

Interesting.

If all had to be redone from scrap, I would have liked much more simple rules about movement and traps, etc.

The mix between movement actions, fatigue move, hero skills and feats does introduce a complexity that I don't quite like - and I fully understand the desire to create house rules that make things easier to apply.

In any case, it would be nice from FFG to produce a small "game aid", where key expressions are regrouped - with some explanations about mechanics interactions (such as Immobilze with a heroic feat not considered as a movement action, etc.).

The idea of a "pool" of movement points is, for an example, quite difficult (if not impossible) to discern when reading the rules without the FAQ and the "FFG Sez" references as a background.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#40 griton

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 10:21 AM

I believe that one of the FFG Sez responses has said that they are looking into a change for large monster movement where the monster isn't placed until it's done with all of its movement (so attacks, other actions, etc, would happen from the "shrunken" space instead of expanding first). That may be a decent house-rule.






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