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How do I stop this B*tch?


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#1 CaelanCross

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:19 AM

Hi guys, sorry for the long post but I could use some help here,

 

I just started my first campaign as OL and I am having a serious problem with one of the characters in the party (4-person party)... Silhouette the Treasure Hunter.  

 

For those of you unfamiliar with that character, her heroic feat allows her (for 1 action) to move 10 spaces and collect any search tokens for free so long she moves into a space adjacent to the token during her movement. That might not sound game breaking but I've found that treasure is one of the most important factors in determining the party's strength.  With her ability she will almost always grab 2-4 treasures with a single action, every map, and as a treasure hunter she can draw 2 cards each time to comb through the deck for free items and high gold value potions.  I can easily see this combo spiraling out of control as the campaign goes on, and the worst part is I can't think of a long term strategy on how to stop her....

 

Blocking: I can try to block her path but that isn't always going to be feasible every turn on every map, plus her starting weapon allows her to move monsters on a surge

 

Trip Wire: will not work because her ability is not technically a "move action," as I understand the rules, and she has a 5 cunning even i could play that card

 

Pit Trap: almost as useless as Trip Wire bc she has so much movement that it's unlikely that I would be able to stun during her ability, and stunning her before she triggers her power would only delay the inevitable for 1 round at best

 

Web Trap: seems like my best bet bc it has a chance to immobilize her after her first step cancelling out her power, but even that strategy has problems too... she has might score of 3 to start and there is at least 2 items that can give her a permanent +1 to might (thief's vest and a helmet) plus a lucky charm that can give her a re-roll; the second the party gets a chance to gear her up this will stop being an option

 

Kill the B*tch: the rest of the party does not exist for me, I kill her, keep her dead and never let the stand... sounds great, but even if I can pull it off it would only ruin the rest of the game since no one is going to enjoy playing out that scenario :(

 

House Rule: I try to convince my group to accept changing her ability to something more manageable, like...  instead of moving double her speed, she takes a move action picking up tokens as she goes

 

 

Anyone have any suggestions?  Am I over-reacting, or has anyone else encountered this situation before?

 

Cheers,

And thx for reading if you made it this far ;)


Edited by CaelanCross, 05 September 2013 - 10:44 AM.


#2 Robin

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:30 AM

I don't have the gear under my eyes, but I presume you are speaking of Silhouette?

You seem to have suggested good tactics against her.

Trying to KO her would be my objective - and if the others aren't happy with that, they have the challenge to find out a counter-tactic (as, for now, you are the one being p!ssed of by that heroe's capacity).  ;)


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#3 CaelanCross

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:04 AM

I don't have the gear under my eyes, but I presume you are speaking of Silhouette?

You seem to have suggested good tactics against her.

Trying to KO her would be my objective - and if the others aren't happy with that, they have the challenge to find out a counter-tactic (as, for now, you are the one being p!ssed of by that heroe's capacity).  ;)

Thx for the quick reply and yes that is the character I'm talking about,

 

Thing is, I'm looking for something a little more than a "just beat her up," strategy, since it's basically just your classic chimpanzee with a stick approach ;)

...and unless I'm swallowing her with ice dragons all the time I don't that working long term anyway, since she only needs to be standing for 1 turn for clear the map of treasure 

 

P.S. which strategy that I listed did you think sounded good?


Edited by CaelanCross, 05 September 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#4 Kunzite

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:47 PM

She is on our "easy-moto" list. Heroes can get all their pretties very easy. The fact she can do this each encounter is just frustrating for me to hear as an OL.

 

My heroes had a Jane last time. She was a fast mover as well. I made them pay, on more then one occasion, for putting her out in the open. Kill her every moment you can. Make them FEAR putting her out like that.

 

I would also use the Sabitor class. Make her pay for searching. Even if she searches for free, you can still turn her into a monkey >D! Or out right kill her later on in the quest. If you have the web traps, then you are already on your way.

 

You can do it, fellow OL! Hang in there. Keep at the "kill her" mentality. They will be less willing to pick her next time.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

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#5 RagsMckay

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

As a player she is my favorite Char. I am so surprised my OL did not kill her more often as she was frequently off on her own. I don't agree with Kunzite that killing her would make that much difference. I feel I would still put her out there to get killed, as her main job for me was to simply get as much treasue as she can. And lets face it with a max move of 20(10 move feat + 5 normal move + 5 fatigue) on her heroic feat turn not including a potion, it is hard to stop her.


I die...A lot.


#6 CaelanCross

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:28 PM

As a player she is my favorite Char. I am so surprised my OL did not kill her more often as she was frequently off on her own. I don't agree with Kunzite that killing her would make that much difference. I feel I would still put her out there to get killed, as her main job for me was to simply get as much treasue as she can. And lets face it with a max move of 20(10 move feat + 5 normal move + 5 fatigue) on her heroic feat turn not including a potion, it is hard to stop her.

I agree completely,

 

My heroes are smart enough to know that it is worth it in the long run to put their rogue character in danger if it means they can pick up  2-3 search tokens in exchange; what I need is a way to prevent her from getting more than one token at a time. I know there is a trap that can instantly kill with a search but it is expensive and I'm not going to be able to afford it until the second quest of act II unless I'm lucky enough to win a map that grants bonus xp



#7 Kunzite

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:34 PM

As a player she is my favorite Char. I am so surprised my OL did not kill her more often as she was frequently off on her own. I don't agree with Kunzite that killing her would make that much difference. I feel I would still put her out there to get killed, as her main job for me was to simply get as much treasue as she can. And lets face it with a max move of 20(10 move feat + 5 normal move + 5 fatigue) on her heroic feat turn not including a potion, it is hard to stop her.

 

I agree. stopping her is hard, but...

 

My heroes can't stand me using a character as a card cow. I get her down once and then keep her down. If the heroes are greedy, you, as the OL have to punish them for being greedy. if killing her and punching face every time she stands up is doable while going about your quest, do it. It will make the heroes a little more conservative. In our game play I feel our heroes and myself have more fun when they are being conservative anyhow. Tighter game play makes for closer wins/losses.

 

I know you are using Basic 1, but Basic 2 has the mimic card. If you get your hands on the Labyrinth of Ruin Expansion next time and use Basic 2, mimic does work. That one card makes my heroes question the worth of the search. The Mimic is really easy to kill, BUT it takes at least one more action to do so. I had a hero search to find a mimic. The mimic then ran off with his treasure and killed another hero before the original hero could come back and finish off the mimic. I was rolling with laughter.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

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#8 CaelanCross

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:29 PM

I know you are using Basic 1, but Basic 2 has the mimic card. If you get your hands on the Labyrinth of Ruin Expansion next time and use Basic 2, mimic does work. That one card makes my heroes question the worth of the search. The Mimic is really easy to kill, BUT it takes at least one more action to do so. I had a hero search to find a mimic. The mimic then ran off with his treasure and killed another hero before the original hero could come back and finish off the mimic. I was rolling with laughter.

 

I do actually have access to the expansion but I choose to use the basic deck without even looking at the new cards bc it was my first time as OL and I knew the old cards from my own experience as a hero; maybe that was a mistake bc now that you have brought it to my attention I was just looking up the expansion and have just discovered a little thing called "Curse"  :o

 

Thx Kunzite, the group I'm up against has crappy lore and zero ability to eliminate conditions bc the healer is a spirit speaker, so I'm going to check out any monster that can curse ASAP


Edited by CaelanCross, 05 September 2013 - 03:53 PM.

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#9 PlainWhiteBread

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

I've played as Treasure Hunter Silhouette before, and her effectiveness is reduced on maps where her feat isn't as useful; Maps where the heroes have to kill something/a lot of somethings, or maps where the search tokens are in way out-of-the-way places. She's really 'Easy-modo' to play, because she has good stats outside of Book, and her feat is top-of-the-line for her class.

She really shines in maps where all the searches are together, or on small maps. Therefore, as the Overlord, it's up to you to WIN some maps and tailor the campaign to reduce the amount of treasure she has access to by avoiding those choices.

And go Saboteur, like how Kunzite suggested.


Edited by PlainWhiteBread, 05 September 2013 - 08:59 PM.


#10 griton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:58 AM

Web Trap: seems like my best bet bc it has a chance to immobilize her after her first step cancelling out her power, but even that strategy has problems too... she has might score of 3 to start and there is at least 2 items that can give her a permanent +1 to might (thief's vest and a helmet) plus a lucky charm that can give her a re-roll; the second the party gets a chance to gear her up this will stop being an option

While this would immobilize her, since her move isn't a move action, it doesn't end her movement. (The FAQ Ruling about ending movement when immobilized during that movement specifically talks about Move Actions, and the following question basically says that Immobilized doesn't affect anything that isn't a move action.) So she would still complete her Heroic Feat action, and then wouldn't be able to take any further move actions later that turn due to being Immobilized.

 

I think your best bet is to choose quests with spread out Search Tokens and use blocking tactics whenever possible. Lots of small creatures may be your friend here over a couple big ones. Also remember that if they are going to move a large figure, the "shrinking" that is done must be to the space that the hero targeted, which adds a small bit of restrictions.


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#11 CaelanCross

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:49 PM

 

Web Trap: seems like my best bet bc it has a chance to immobilize her after her first step cancelling out her power, but even that strategy has problems too... she has might score of 3 to start and there is at least 2 items that can give her a permanent +1 to might (thief's vest and a helmet) plus a lucky charm that can give her a re-roll; the second the party gets a chance to gear her up this will stop being an option

While this would immobilize her, since her move isn't a move action, it doesn't end her movement. (The FAQ Ruling about ending movement when immobilized during that movement specifically talks about Move Actions, and the following question basically says that Immobilized doesn't affect anything that isn't a move action.) So she would still complete her Heroic Feat action, and then wouldn't be able to take any further move actions later that turn due to being Immobilized.

 

I think your best bet is to choose quests with spread out Search Tokens and use blocking tactics whenever possible. Lots of small creatures may be your friend here over a couple big ones. Also remember that if they are going to move a large figure, the "shrinking" that is done must be to the space that the hero targeted, which adds a small bit of restrictions.

 

Well that sucks,

 

Webbing her was just about the only thing I could think of to shut down her ability.  I guess I will just have to stick to OL 101 and focus on effective blocking and picking the right maps whenever possible.

 

I don't know if large groups is going to benefit me much over large monsters as the rest of the party consists of Landrec the blasting runmage, Ashrian the spiritspeaker who can stun entire monster groups and Trenloe the knight who deals impressive enough damage on his own (plus advance) that the party should be able to cleave through small monsters faster than I can reinforce them :(


Edited by CaelanCross, 06 September 2013 - 05:50 PM.


#12 Cursain

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 07:36 PM

 

 

Web Trap: seems like my best bet bc it has a chance to immobilize her after her first step cancelling out her power, but even that strategy has problems too... she has might score of 3 to start and there is at least 2 items that can give her a permanent +1 to might (thief's vest and a helmet) plus a lucky charm that can give her a re-roll; the second the party gets a chance to gear her up this will stop being an option

While this would immobilize her, since her move isn't a move action, it doesn't end her movement. (The FAQ Ruling about ending movement when immobilized during that movement specifically talks about Move Actions, and the following question basically says that Immobilized doesn't affect anything that isn't a move action.) So she would still complete her Heroic Feat action, and then wouldn't be able to take any further move actions later that turn due to being Immobilized.

 

I think your best bet is to choose quests with spread out Search Tokens and use blocking tactics whenever possible. Lots of small creatures may be your friend here over a couple big ones. Also remember that if they are going to move a large figure, the "shrinking" that is done must be to the space that the hero targeted, which adds a small bit of restrictions.

 

Well that sucks,

 

Webbing her was just about the only thing I could think of to shut down her ability.  I guess I will just have to stick to OL 101 and focus on effective blocking and picking the right maps whenever possible.

 

I don't know if large groups is going to benefit me much over large monsters as the rest of the party consists of Landrec the blasting runmage, Ashrian the spiritspeaker who can stun entire monster groups and Trenloe the knight who deals impressive enough damage on his own (plus advance) that the party should be able to cleave through small monsters faster than I can reinforce them :(

 

 

The majority of quest reinforcement mechanics in Descent truly favor large monsters.  It's unfortunate. 

The reinforcement mechanic in "Gathering Foretold"/encounter2 is the only one I've read that makes sense for both large (4-6sq), medium(2sq) and small monster(1sq) types.

 

-Cursain



#13 Cursain

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 08:06 PM

Actually, the Infector OL cards from Trollfens look like a good counter for that character:

In the Blood

What makes the overlord’s new Infector class so nasty is its callous inevitability. Other overlord classes concentrate on surprises, one-time damage, and monster control, but an Infector plays the long game; once a hero has been defiled by the insidious contagions of the Infector class, there’s little he can do but wait for the consequences.

The Infector class uses infection tokens to mark its victims, and as these tokens accumulate, they represent the advancement of infection in a hero’s body.

DJ05-token-infect.png

The only limit to the number of infection tokens a hero may have is the supply of infection tokens, and you can be certain there are enough tokens for infection to become truly brutal. Also, since Infection isn’t a condition, per se (there’s no card for it), there is very little recourse once a hero has been so marked. A hero might cure one token with a new relic called the Mending Talisman, but if the overlord is playing his cards right, one infection token is merely a drop in the proverbial bucket of festering disease.

 

 

 

I bet they are going to allow the Infection tokens to stay on the players even while knocked out.  That is going to play a major boon for the OL since at least three of the Infector cards span the entirety of the quest.  That thins out the OL deck, while helping spread infector tokens. 


Edited by Cursain, 06 September 2013 - 08:07 PM.

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#14 wum1ng

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:44 PM

Its quite worthwhile to sacrifice Silhouette to make one good run and search the entire map. If she's on her own and is knocked out once, its OK, the player does not need to stand her up until it is safe to do so. One OL card for lots of searching (all free actions too!) is very good and can win entire encounters in a single turn if all that is necessary is searching. 

 

We have come to the conclusion that the Conversion Kit isn't the most balanced thing for Descent 2.0 and have since played pure 2.0 only :)



#15 Kunzite

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 07:16 AM

Despite the fact that allot of easy-moto characters for the heroes come from the CK, I really feel the CK is in the favor of the OL. Sorcery alone is a massive boon and then the two stealthy monsters. As much as my heroes don't like them, they are still balanced in comparison to some heroes with 5 fatigue or another with a heroic feat of "I'm not going to take your damage, so there!"

 

Or maybe I'm not a good OL and can't exploit the monsters to their fullest, I don't know. Either way, in our group the CK really helped us balance the game.

 

As far as infector goes, this is going to be an amazing class. I like the surprise I have with other cards, but this thinning the deck and ultimately "super dark charm", as I like to call it, will be amazing. With campaigns like LoR, getting a full set of one class and a dash of another is very doable. I have only won two quests and I have almost all my warlord and diving into another, not just a pinch of a class. This opens a whole new door for the OL. Cursain is correct. Infector very well may be able to put any pesky hero in their place.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#16 AltWren

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:04 AM

the party consists of Landrec the blasting runmage, Ashrian the spiritspeaker who can stun entire monster groups and Trenloe the knight

 

Hey, that's the exact party I just starting running with!  *snicker*

 

Keep in mind that Silie's power never helps complete the objective and win the map, so a good counter for her would to be focusing on doing that.  Don't give her time to run around and search, because it will lose her the map.  Of course, an intelligent party will be willing to abandon most map victories in favor of a successful Silhouette grab, since it will usually result in more profit than a victory, which will lead to future victories.  Try to separate her from her friends.  Lendrec and Tren are both sloths and will not be able to keep up with her.  Wall up between her and the party and then knock her down once a turn for a card.  And whenever things go bad and she pulls 250 gold in a single action, just remember:  At least she isn't Steelhorns.

 

(Guys, stop helping my OL.)


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#17 AltWren

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:35 AM

Actually...

Speaking of my old friend Steelhorns, isn't that an ironic coincidence?  Two characters from the Conversion Kit who both have movement based powers are causing OLs problems.  If only these special movement actions weren't magically immune to every card and strategy the OL can employ to stop them, such as tripwires and web...



#18 Kunzite

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 06:51 AM

Actually...

Speaking of my old friend Steelhorns, isn't that an ironic coincidence?  Two characters from the Conversion Kit who both have movement based powers are causing OLs problems.  If only these special movement actions weren't magically immune to every card and strategy the OL can employ to stop them, such as tripwires and web...

 

I feel movement is the most powerful ability in Descent. For the OL, Blinding Speed and Dash are it. For the heroes, normally it's fatigue. When a hero preforms a spacial move action of some kind (Stealhorns, Silhouette, Jane, ect), that can be a huge boon for the heroes and therefore can set the OL back tremendously, just as a full Blinding Speed or Dash for the OL. The problem with heroes and their abilities is the lack of chance. For blinding speed, first the OL has to draw it and then the warrior has to roll crap (which happens more times then I would realize. I'm always surprised). But that is the way for the OL in all things. And honestly, that is a part of the OL I really enjoy. Magic background really aids in that.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#19 Steve-O

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:28 AM

Actually...

Speaking of my old friend Steelhorns, isn't that an ironic coincidence?  Two characters from the Conversion Kit who both have movement based powers are causing OLs problems.  If only these special movement actions weren't magically immune to every card and strategy the OL can employ to stop them, such as tripwires and web...

 

It's not ironic at all, and I'm not convinced that it's coincidence, either. =P

 

I've been considering house rules for movement for a while now.  Balance questions aside, I just find it annoying that there are so many "gotchas" in the realm of movement.  It's not longer about whether a figure enters a space, but how.  1E had it's chare of movement-related issues too, but at least if the figure was moving then it counted as moving.



#20 Cursain

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:49 AM

I have to agree with these movement complaints.  FFG's stance is pretty much garbage.  The fact a player can be immobilized but still move 10 spaces is laughable.






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