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Knight Advance skill


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#1 MarvinTPA

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:05 PM

My question may seem trivial but I think i have exhausted every way to search for this. The terms knight, advance, skill, movement and attack are very hard to google for as they appear everywhere. I have read the FAQ and i think i've read every forum discussion that contains the key terms.

 

 

 

Playing Descend (2nd), we had the following discussion about the Knight's "Advance" skill:

The german edition had an issue there.

 

Players: "For the cost of one fatigue, the knight can do an additional 'movement' and 'attack' with the Advance skill right after he killed an enemy. This may lead to having two movements and two attacks in one round, or three attacks and a movement"

 

Overlord: "Thats way overpowered for a one XP point skill. It would double the amount of actions the knight can do for one fatigue. So you could do this four rounds in a row, Obviously the skill means that you can move after an attack and then must do a regular attack, which then concludes the two actions of your heroes round"

 

Players: "One can move with fatigue anytime in that part of the round. With the dwarf you would merely save two fatigue in the case that you kill a monster with the first part of your round and want to move after that. That would be underpowered / useless."

 

 

 

Then i dug up the english version of the card, but we werent all at ease with it.

 

In case you're wondering: the german translation of the card seems even more debatable than the english one. To us the skill read "The player may move his full usual distance to do another attack". Now the english "additional attack" seems more precise. But it could still mean that the player gets a free additional attack or that he may just use his regular action. 

 

Both interpretations seem a bit extreme. Now i already picked up in the forums that apparently everyone seems to share the players point of view of this mechanism. So beside everyones opinon on this i would also be interested if its possible to get an official answer from the writers in this forum. i believe havent seen a blue post so far.



#2 Kunzite

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:24 PM

After defeating a monster, exhaust this card to move up to your speed and then make an attack.

 

Yes, this is powerful, but it's not nearly as powerful as the OL's own level one card "Blood Rage" but that's besides the point. The way we play this card is that the Hero in question can move up to his speed and then attack. He cannot interrupt his movement to attack, so once he attacks, his turn ends unless he had movement points left over from his regular movement, if he took one.

 

Wording like this is seen on other things as well, such as Vol. Reavers' Squeamish action. Most spacial abilities will say the movement can be interrupted if the movement is irregular.

 

I have gone a whole campaign with a warrior with this. I don't feel it is OP any more then my own cards. I have found ways around it and I have found ways to bring Nanok the Blade to his knees. If I can do that, then I can't complain about the skill.


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#3 PierreBoberg

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:08 AM

Hi,

we play like this:

Players: "For the cost of one fatigue, the knight can do an additional 'movement' and 'attack' with the Advance skill right after he killed an enemy. This may lead to having two movements and two attacks in one round, or three attacks and a movement"



#4 griton

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:50 PM

Players: "For the cost of one fatigue, the knight can do an additional 'movement' and 'attack' with the Advance skill right after he killed an enemy. This may lead to having two movements and two attacks in one round, or three attacks and a movement"

This is mostly correct. Just keep in mind that the "Move up to your Speed and perform an additional attack" must all be resolved immediately after the defeat of the monster and can not be interrupted (the only thing that can be interrupted is a Move Action, which this is not). This does not say "Gain an additional move and attack action to use during this turn."

 

 

Overlord: "Thats way overpowered for a one XP point skill. It would double the amount of actions the knight can do for one fatigue. So you could do this four rounds in a row, Obviously the skill means that you can move after an attack and then must do a regular attack, which then concludes the two actions of your heroes round"

While this is a pretty common skill for Knights to take, I've never really seen it be overpowered. Firstly, monster defeats don't generally happen all that often for a given character (other characters are usually killing stuff too, and if they aren't, that extra attack can help offset things). The "actions" are very limited, and even though actions are a Hero's most valuable resource, they only come occasionally, and only if the heroes have room to suffer more fatigue (A smart overlord keeps heroes at high fatigue values as much as he can; it's often a more valuable target than damage).

 

If it meant that you could just do another regular attack, there'd be no reason to list it on the card. If that second attack was meant to use an action, it would also have an action symbol next to it.

 

 

Players: "One can move with fatigue anytime in that part of the round. With the dwarf you would merely save two fatigue in the case that you kill a monster with the first part of your round and want to move after that. That would be underpowered / useless."

As far as I know, this is incorrect (Unless I'm misinterpreting what's implied here). FFG has stated that an action must be resolved as a whole AND that the only thing that may be interrupted is a Move Action (and that "moving up to your speed" is not a "Move Action"). I'm still waiting to hear whether or not the attack specified by Advance may interrupt the movement specified by Advance, though, as it's not 100% clear based on the card. (Though according to current rulings, I would say that it's not allowed.)



#5 MarvinTPA

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:13 PM

thank you for those precise interpretations

the arguments that I cited were of course slight exaggerations.

- the overlord knew that the additional actions are not fully qualified actions, but rather argued that it would have almost the same worth.

- the player's argument was just the confusing interpretation of the skill without additional attack. we didn't mean that you can use fatigue while using advance, but that fatigue is tradable for movement around real actions. without the additional attack the advance skill would resemble a rather dull fatigue saving mechanism we argued.


the funny thing about it all is that we played with the additional attack and the overlord still wiped the floor with us on that map. he had an awful lot of lucky dices there tho :-)

on a side note we treated the extra movement as non interruptible by traps etc.
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#6 griton

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:08 AM

on a side note we treated the extra movement as non interruptible by traps etc.

 

If the trap says "during a move action", then you played it correctly as "moving up to your speed" is not a move action.

 

If, however, the trap says "enters an empty space", I think that playing a trap is still valid. 


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#7 BadbadLeroy

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 05:30 PM

just to clarify. This means you have to be able to attack something in order to use this skill? I can't just use it for the move?

#8 Steve-O

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:28 PM

Mr Brown said:

just to clarify. This means you have to be able to attack something in order to use this skill? I can't just use it for the move?

 

I would be inclined to say yes, there must be a target you can reach for the follow-up attack.  The wording on the card does not say you "may" make an attack.  It says make an attack.  You cannot legally target emtpy space or friendly figures, so there must be an enemy you can attack from the point where you stop moving.

 

FFG might rule otherwise, though.


Edited by Steve-O, 02 October 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#9 Inspector Jee

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:47 PM

Steve-O Said:

I would be inclined to say yes, there must be a target you can reach for the follow-up attack.  The wording on the card does not say you "may" make an attack.  It says make an attack.  You cannot legally target emtpy space or friendly figures, so there must be an enemy you can attack from the point where you stop moving.

 

FFG might rule otherwise, though.

 

I would be pretty surprised if they ruled it this way.  There so many things that could happen to that hero during the "move" portion of Advance that would end up making a previously possible attack, impossible.  Ruling that the attack must happen or you can't use the skill would cause more questions than it answered.  While FFG is certainly not above this (grr), I reckon the intent here is that the attack is optional.


Edited by Inspector Jee, 02 October 2013 - 10:48 PM.


#10 Varikas

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:58 AM

sure, that question has been already answered and the answer is that you can use this skill only to move, only to attack or to do both, but no one (move or attack) are mandatory.



#11 Steve-O

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 05:51 AM

I would be pretty surprised if they ruled it this way.  There so many things that could happen to that hero during the "move" portion of Advance that would end up making a previously possible attack, impossible.  Ruling that the attack must happen or you can't use the skill would cause more questions than it answered.  While FFG is certainly not above this (grr), I reckon the intent here is that the attack is optional.

 

Well if you have a valid target and you initiate the skill, and then the OL does something to stop you from reaching your target, that's a different kettle of fish.  You were solid when you activated the skill, but then **** happened.

 

 

sure, that question has been already answered and the answer is that you can use this skill only to move, only to attack or to do both, but no one (move or attack) are mandatory.

 

I stand corrected.






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