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Innsmouth Horror Jail Cell


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#1 jackman51

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:38 PM

Is the Jail-Break roll for this mandatory? Since it occurs in the Arkham Encounters phase usually I would think yes but The Jail Cell doesn't really seem to be a true location in so far as you cannot move there. In addition all the encounters in the Jail Cell are geared for the escape action only. Also thematically it seems to be that an investigator should be able to choose when he wants to try since you may want to wait until another investigator moves to Sawbone alley first.

 

Also it would seem that you could try to escape  the immediately following AE phase just after the movement phase you got arrested though you would still be delayed next turn. Does all this sound correct?

 

Check this thread out for a bit more discussion.

 

http://boardgamegeek...l-cell-question

 



#2 The Professor

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:52 PM

Time is not at all on your side in Arkham Horror.  You don't wait for an Investigator to wander by...you escape...fast!

 

oh, and a few folks posted answers over on bgg


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#3 Tibs

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:56 PM

My two cents would be that it's mandatory to have to make the check, because it counts as a location for all intents and purposes (however, as I said on BGG, you can't make the check on the same turn you're arrested).



#4 jackman51

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:49 PM

My two cents would be that it's mandatory to have to make the check, because it counts as a location for all intents and purposes (however, as I said on BGG, you can't make the check on the same turn you're arrested).

Uncertain as to why not if you are merely delayed since AE occurs anyway. It would have to say you lose the rest of your turn if the arrest occurs in the movement phase. I thought I read on another post that ColtsFan thought so too  http://boardgamegeek...etting-arrested



#5 Gamemaster

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:02 PM

You may be arrested during the Movement Phase, but you still must make the obligatory Jail Break action during your Arkham Encounters phase.



#6 jackman51

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:08 AM

Yeah Gamemaster this is part of why I was asking if the Cell roll was mandatory or not. An investigator arrested during his movement phase won't have time to adjust sliders and might not even get a chance to wait for an investigator to come help him in Sawbone Alley if he is the last player of the turn. Guess the designers really wanted to brutalize investigators since you apparently don't even get the chance to decide when to try to escape and then even if you get to the Alley you're delayed next turn.

One other thing--Do delayed investigators have to roll another evade check if they're in an Innsmouth steet or locale requiring it? I'm thinking yes and what a loop that could end up being!



#7 Julia

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

I'd go with yes as well, but I don't have FAQ or rulebooks at hand


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#8 Tibs

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:22 PM

You're supposed to lose your turn when you're arrested. This would include the remainder of your turn and prevent you from an immediate jailbreak attempt.


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#9 Julia

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:40 AM

You're supposed to lose your turn when you're arrested. This would include the remainder of your turn and prevent you from an immediate jailbreak attempt.

 

Aye, correct. Thanks Tibs :) It's a life I don't get arrested...


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#10 jackman51

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:31 AM

You're supposed to lose your turn when you're arrested. This would include the remainder of your turn and prevent you from an immediate jailbreak attempt.

 

This is not the consensus on a thread at BGG I was just a part of found here.

http://boardgamegeek...l-and-jail-cell

 

The rules say "delayed" and lose half your money. You must if "delayed" have an AE phase. Even if you make it to Sawbone Alley you remain delayed in the following movement phase.

 

If you are arrested in the AE phase say from a location encounter then no a Jail Break attempt would not be made as it would violate the general prohibition against having more than one encounter per turn.

 

I believe ColtsFan76 clarified this also here.

http://boardgamegeek...etting-arrested

 

Of course I may have missed a rule change or designer clarification and for that I will apologize in advance but if so then I am not the only one under this delusion. If there is a link to it please post it here.



#11 Tibs

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

Arkham rulebook, page 16:

 

Some encounters may result in an investigator being arrested and taken to the Police Station. When this
occurs, the player should place the investigator in the Jail Cell (rather than the main Police Station area).
Arrested investigators lose half of their money (round down) and are delayed. The player completely skips the
next turn, simply standing his investigator marker and placing it in the main area of the Police Station during
the Movement Phase. The player may act in the following turn as normal.

 

What ColtsFan described does happen from a technical standpoint, but the investigator still loses his/her next turn (and therefore the remainder of his/her current turn).



#12 jackman51

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:01 PM

As ColtsFan 76 indicated in that post was that he believes the mechanics of the Jail Cell in Innsmouth are not analogous to the Police Station cell in Arkham proper.

 

No, I think the difference is that in Arkham, you are laid on your side when you first go to the Jail. As your next movement you stand up AND move to the Police Station.

I believe in Innsmouth, when it comes time for movement, you just stand up and aren't automatically moved to the Innsmouth Jail, you remain in the Jail Cell. So your very next encounter could delay you again.

This isn't clear in the rules and perhaps I am putting too much conjecture in my interpretation. But the rules just say you go to Innsmouth if on the Innsmouth board and not the Arkham board. And then no further comparison is made. So you shouldn't assume this Jail Cell is the same as the other Jail cell.

For one it has its own encounter set. In Arkham, it is an "unecessary" space and is just a means to show you are there without granting you the "benefit" of the Police Station encounter.

Two, the rules clarify that you can be "trapped in Innsmouth Jail may wind up stuck there for several turns." Thee is nothing preventing you from leaving the Innsmouth Jail, as you can just move out. The key is getting from the Cell to the location.

So you have to be in a position to be able to get continually delayed. Since there is no such thing as "double delayed" the only way this works out is if instead of moving to the Innsmouth Jail when you become undelayed, you just simply standup in the Jail Cell space.

 

As page 6 of the "Getting Arrested in Innsmouth" rules do not mention a loss of a turn in that  Innsmouth Jail Cell I and others believe that yes indeed you do have to take your AE phase and quite possibly be devoured. I myself had argued that in this special case the Jail Break should not be mandatory since you won't even be able to prepare for the skill check (by adjusting sliders or maybe by another investigator being able to move to Sawbone Alley)  but I could see that I really did have any legal ground to stand on. Still given the toughness of the  Innsmouth Cops I think the case can be made the designers wanted it that way--get out fast and possibly die trying or maybe be stuck there forever. In Arkham proper you lose a turn but afterward just leave the Jail. There is a difference to me.

 

Perhaps ColtsFan 76 will comment here or better yet Kevin if this cannot be agreed on--and they don't agree at the BGG forums.



#13 ColtsFan76

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 11:17 AM

I am still of the opinion that the Jail Cell rules for Arkham are different than the Jail Cell rules for Innsmouth.  In Arkham, it clearly states you lose the rest of this and the next turn (no encounters) whereas in Innsmouth it reiterates the loss of money and being delayed but says nothing about losing your turn.  I believe this is intentional and forces you to have an Encounter to see what happens in the cell right now.  You may get devoured before you have a chance to reset your skills or get people to you.
 
Arkham Jail Cell is a completely different mechanic that delays you this turn, prevents you from having an encounter (since there are no Jail Cell encounters), and then forces you to skip your next turn as well (moving you but also denying you a Police Station encounter).

 


Edited by ColtsFan76, 07 September 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#14 Tibs

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:56 AM

Hmm. I am of the opinion that the loss of turn was an omission, and that if there was not supposed to be a loss of turn, it would have been specifically stated—in the same way that it was clearly stated that immunity to delayed doesn't prevent you from being delayed.



#15 ColtsFan76

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:06 PM

It is just two completely different mechanics though.  The Arkham arrest is merely a delaying tactic.  You lose the rest of this turn (no encounter because there is no Jail specific encounters) and then move to the police station  But you lose the rest of this next turn as well so you skip the encounter again. Then you are free to move on the 3rd turn (or stay and have an actual police station encounter).  It is just a nuisance.

 

Innsmouth is actually a dangerous place.  You get thrown in there and you have a chance to immediately get devoured.  You have a better chance of escape, of course, but it is highly up to luck at that point since you typically won't have adjusted your speed to give you more cards to draw.  And even if you are lucky enough to escape on the very turn you get thrown in, you are still delayed, meaning you have to spend one turn on Sawbone Alley.  If Martial Law has been declared, there is a good chance you get thrown right back in.

 

I am not a huge proponent of the rule of thumb that you "do what hurts the investigators most" but I do think that is the driving principal here.  It is more harmful to an investigator to lose a turn in Arkham.  It is more harmful to an investigator NOT to lose a turn in Innsmouth.  And this follow the thematic slant of Innsmouth perfectly, I think.

 

If you skipped an encounter and lost the next turn, that is two chances to revise your Sneak during Phase 1. It is also a lot more time to get other investigators in Sawbone Alley to increase your chances.

 

Finally, if you applied the Arkham rules exactly as written, the sequence is actually you would have an encounter the turn you are thrown in jail (remember, it only says lose next turn - you are assumed to lose this turn because there is no means to have an encounter anyway).  Then next turn you skip an encounter.  Finally, you would go back to having an encounter. That makes no sense but is RAW.

 

So I don't think the omission is an oversight at all.  I believe it is written as intended and the jail mechanic is completely different.  The reference to Arkham Jail is to be clear it doesn't apply and then they go on and explain how you deal with Innsmouth Jail: delay, lose 1/2 money.  That's it.  The cards take care of the rest.



#16 Gamemaster

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:18 PM

I thought I'd offer my opinion on this as well.  True, you do lose your turn when you are arrested.  However, in both Jail Cells you still do one (and only one) action.  In Arkham Jail, you stand yourself up and placed at the Police Station during the Movement Phase.  In Innsmouth Jail, Jail Break must be attempted during the Arkham Encounters Phase.



#17 Julia

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:26 PM

I just sent a message to FFG asking a clarification on this point. As soon as I have an answer (well, IF, I'm still waiting for some rules questions to be answered), I'll post it here.


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#18 Tibs

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:37 AM

I thought I'd offer my opinion on this as well.  True, you do lose your turn when you are arrested.  However, in both Jail Cells you still do one (and only one) action.  In Arkham Jail, you stand yourself up and placed at the Police Station during the Movement Phase.  In Innsmouth Jail, Jail Break must be attempted during the Arkham Encounters Phase.

 

It's not that simple though. "Actions" aren't defined in the game. Both things you describe occur on two different phases, and if you truly did "lose your turn," then you wouldn't be able to do Jail Break in Innsmouth.



#19 jackman51

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

I just sent a message to FFG asking a clarification on this point. As soon as I have an answer (well, IF, I'm still waiting for some rules questions to be answered), I'll post it here.

 

As an aside who at FFG is considered an authority on the rules for AH? It's my understanding that Kevin Wilson doesn't work there anymore and I'm not sure he will even be on these boards. Does Mr. Lannius respond much here and if not who is the go to guy for answers?  Right now it looks like ColtsFan 76 and I'm not entirely sure he necessarily relishes the honor..heh..heh :P


Edited by jackman51, 09 September 2013 - 08:13 AM.


#20 Julia

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:55 PM

Hi guys!

I got an answer today directly from Tim Uren. I'm going to copy & paste it also in the Official Answer thread. Here we go:

 

________________________

 

Hi Julia,

 
Thanks for the question. The dynamics are slightly different. When an investigator is arrested in Arkham:
  • He loses half of his money and is delayed.
  • He places his investigator token (on its side, since he's delayed) in the Jail Cell.
  • If this occurred during the Movement Phase, he skips the Arkham Encounter Phase of this turn.
On his next turn
  • He does not get an Upkeep Phase.
  • The only thing he can do during his Movement Phase is stand his investigator token up and move it to the Police Station.
  • He does not get an Arkham Encounter Phase.
After that, he continues play normally.
 
When an investigator is arrested in Innsmouth
  • He loses half of his money and is delayed.
  • He places his investigator token (on its side, since he's delayed) in the Innsmouth Jail.
  • If he was arrested during the Movement Phase, he must resolve Arkham Encounter Phase of this turn, either resolving the location's Jail Break ability or, if he wants, drawing a card form the location deck. (Investigators will probably always choose the Jail Break ability.)
On his next turn
  • He does get an Upkeep Phase.
  • The only thing he can do during his Movement Phase is stand his investigator token up.
  • During his Arkham Encounters Phase, he must again either resolve the Jail Break or draw a card from the location deck.
 
When Martial Law is in effect in Innsmouth, an investigator in Innsmouth Jail must make the Evade –1 check at the end of his Movement Phase to avoid being arrested for Martial Law, even if he is delayed. Each time an investigator is arrested in the Innsmouth Jail, he loses half of his money and is delayed.
 
If he has not been arrested again, he continues play normally afterwards.
 
Hope that helps!
 
 
Tim Uren
Associate Creative Content Developer

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