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#21 Fgdsfg

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:35 AM

DH2 isn't getting updated to conform with newer rulesets of the overall WH40kRP system - it's a completely new system, with no relation, crossover or compatibility to the original systems other than on a purely superficial level.

 
Kind of nuts IMO. One of the biggest reasons I've kept buying the odd book is simply for its 'fairly close' (some minimal modifications usually) cross-compatability for equipment, character, story and NPC ideas. I can have a BC chaos marine pry a boltgun out of the cold dead hands of the deathwatch setting or DH acolytes hiding undercover in an OW regiment. As a GM it's kind of fun taking a pinch from each setting Iike to mix them up as I see fit and want to set a scene... so I'm not really interested in DH2. Like a lot of players & GM's from that first generation era, we tended over the now many years to have modified and buffed off the edges off the original DH game (and RT to some extend) with more open OW or BC rules sets anyway to fix the stuff that's busted and horrible.

Oh, no doubt. I think it's completely nuts too, I'm just laying it out as it is. Honestly, I think it's a terrible direction to take things, but if that's what they want to do, I regrettably can't stop them.

On one hand, I like Fantasy Flight Games and (in general) I like their products, so I hope it's a rousing success.

On the other hand, I really hope that DH2 just flat-out tanks, crashes and burns.
 

Back on the Nurgle topic. It'd be a shame if it wasn't released to make up the set, don't get enough Nurgle players and that aspect of chaos was always just so fantastically grotesque that it was a great counterpoint to angry retards covered in blood, crazy stoned hookers covered in...something and sneaky meglomaniac sorcerers trying to be more clever than they actually are and just end up being bastards.
Plus in the past, anything where PC's had to deal with nurgle contagions it had an interesting impact on their character behaviour for those game sessions ranging from 'fairly disturbed' to 'nuke it from orbit and get out of here!'

Agreed.

While there are many interesting facets of the other gods that tends to be ignored, which I find infuriating (Such as: Khorne and his focus on martial prowess and honour, rather than psychotic rage; Tzeentch as a god of hope, changing the fates of those that were handed bum cards in life, rather than just megalomaniac mutative wizardry; Slaanesh as a god of excess, perfection and expertise, rather than just blackjack, hookers and drugs), I've always found Nurgle to be the most interesting, because the idea of him being this caring Grandfather amongst the chaos gods, genuinely (well.. arguable) caring about his underlings and Chosen, imbuing them with immunity to the diseases he fills them with and giving a truly supernatural toughness and fortitude to them, has never been "lost" as 40k has developed.

I think the idea of Nurgle as a god of life will be completely lost, though, since modern fluff tends to put an emphasis on the opposite, with nurgle zombies and whatnot. But he truly is, and although a god of decay, that decay is just straight-up teeming with life, although not always (ever?) pleasant life.

Even in the case of subtlety, I prefer Nurgle over Tzeentch, which is a sad state of affairs brought about by the shallowness of Tzeentchite fluff (and mechanics) these days. Tzeentch should be the schemer, but I always end up thinking of Nurgle when I want that hidden cult that is spreading disease or plotting to open a daemonic portal in secret, or when I want to visualize the idea of slowly creeping heresy, like mold and rust crawling up the spires after slowly engulfing the underhives in widespread plagues of unbelief.
 

[...]
 
But they made a good point. While it makes porting over older specialties (or whatever) very hard, it also means that the flaws and mistakes inherent to the old system are removed.
 
 [...]

While there's an argument to be made that that is the purpose of any new edition - fixing flaws and mistakes inherent to the preceding system - I don't really see that. I'm not seeing anything that DH2 fixed that wasn't already fixable within the boundries of the previous system.

I see lots of things changed, yes, but none that specifically fixes some pre-existing system error, especially without introducing new problems intrinsic to the new system. If DH2 was objectively better than the previous ruleset(s) used in the original system, under the assumption of iterative evolution (i.e. each new edition/ruleset of the overarching system, of which the latest is Only War, being increasingly refined), DH2 would have real merit, and would no doubt be more readily embraced.

But I'm just not seeing that.

There are things that *might* be considered better (such as the Action Point system), but ultimately, that's a matter of taste in most (if not all) cases. But that doesn't mean that it solved an intrinsic problem with the preceding system.

Edited by Fgdsfg, 11 September 2013 - 05:41 AM.

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#22 Morangias

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:19 AM

On one hand, I like Fantasy Flight Games and (in general) I like their products, so I hope it's a rousing success.


On the other hand, I really hope that DH2 just flat-out tanks, crashes and burns.

Yeah, this is really infuriating. I both want DH2 to fail so utterly that FFG has no option but to cut their losses and keep working on other lines, and I hate myself for wishing such a horrible thing on the genuinely nice people behind the project.


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There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#23 MKX

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:16 PM

I dunno if I'd want to wish them poorly, don't think the margins on things like a published RPG game in this day and age (along with the GW licence costs) are exactly huge and a few big hits to the bottom line might see it into the red, then we'd get nothing for anything.

 

For some background, contemporary Nurgle, (the old WH-Fantasy is more or less the 'classic' as I like to remember it) I'd recommend the Imperial Armour 5, 6 & 7 Siege of Vraks if you haven't had a chance to read them. While it doesn't revolve around Nurgle forces entirely, they do play a fairly large role and for what its worth and I personally thought 5 & 6 where actually some of the best written 40K material around for fluff and stories.

 

(Be prepared to lose a large chunk of wallet unless you can get them on ebay or steal them from friends)


Edited by MKX, 11 September 2013 - 05:17 PM.


#24 Theofonias

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:36 AM

I really enjoy the WH40k line that they have.  I avoid their Fantasy and Star Wars games like the play because they use "special dice".  I don't know why it bothers me like it does, perhaps it's because their Fantasy dice was out of stock for so long that people on Amazon were selling them for $60+, but when I see that a game requires dice that is not easily purchasable then I lose interest.  I hope they don't do that to DH2 and the subsequent rule systems.  If they do, they've lost themselves a guy who has bought every book in the 40k series, Dark Heresy through Deathwatch.



#25 Morangias

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:37 AM

Since this topic has devolved in that direction already, and since there may be people here who don't follow the beta, I think it may be relevant to note that FFG made a decision to revise DH2 into something that's backwards compatible.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#26 Korrh

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

Fantastic news! Backward compatibility is exactly what we need. We homeruled BC skill list to DH2 beta skill list and it generally works fine..If we could have an official list, that would be useful.
Even the fact that BC was mentioned means a lot.



#27 Morangias

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:45 PM

Even the fact that BC was mentioned means a lot.

Yeah, it's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks BC is often treated like the red-headed stepchild of the 40k family  ;)


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#28 Keffisch

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:52 AM

I have two Nurgle "inclined" players in my group and they are (un?)dying to get their filthy hands on this book.. :)


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#29 51powerski

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:47 AM

 

Yeah, it's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks BC is often treated like the red-headed stepchild of the 40k family  ;)

 

 

What do you expect?  We're all heretic scum here.  :)



#30 Athanatosz

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

More ruinous power (cant get enough) could be great especially cybernetics (mean nasty chaos tainted ones) and poisons, viruses, and other decaying goods....

Rouge trade and deathwatch also contains a lot of adversaries which can be used in BC like allies or minions to ( which means a bestiary is needed to xeno beast, mercs ect) [may be they will works these together in 1 book)


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    And hate the idle pleasures of these days."

 

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#31 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:41 AM

You may well get your wish re cybernetics - after all, the other legion which will be in the book will presumably be Iron Warriors.

That's one thing that intrigues me; what else will be in the book.

 

We can assume, from the three precedents:

Death Guard Advanced Archetype

Iron Warrior Advanced Archetype

 

two 'human' Advanced Archetypes (??? Plague Priests? Zombie Masters? Something Dark Mechanicum-related?)

 

A small armoury. For starters, the main rulebook only has one set of rules for the Power Scythe, despite listing both human and legion versions in the text.

 

A Nurglesque Adventure

 

Something Else - This has, respectively, been new psychic powers & rituals, rules for legacy weapons & massed battles, social engagements & conversions - so....what fits nurgle?

 

 

I think the idea of Nurgle as a god of life will be completely lost, though

The whole 'garden of Nurgle' malarkey made it through into the most recent Daemons book, though. So there's hope.



#32 Athanatosz

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:16 AM

As i counting there could be an archetype for Nurgle plague marines for Deathguard , another war-smith for iron warrriors,  (undiveded) expanded nurgleish and siege weapons.. (for the crusades) also rituals...

The 2 human archetype could be 1 in heretek flavor and an another maybe a local decay priest (some social type guy)/ cult leader... maybe some rules how to manage warbands in skirmishes, raids or in larger battles..

 

(at least these what i miss now)  


 "I am determined to prove a villain

    And hate the idle pleasures of these days."

 

KING RICHARD III


#33 Torg Smith

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

With them going with backwards compatibility on DH2, hopefully they will do more in this line. While I would not run a BC campaign, I think the books make excellent background information for the Game Master of the DH game.



#34 Torg Smith

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 05:08 PM

I really enjoy the WH40k line that they have.  I avoid their Fantasy and Star Wars games like the play because they use "special dice".  I don't know why it bothers me like it does, perhaps it's because their Fantasy dice was out of stock for so long that people on Amazon were selling them for $60+, but when I see that a game requires dice that is not easily purchasable then I lose interest.  I hope they don't do that to DH2 and the subsequent rule systems.  If they do, they've lost themselves a guy who has bought every book in the 40k series, Dark Heresy through Deathwatch.

 

I was thinking that the Star Wars dice might be a bit gimmicky, but so far they really seem to add to the narrative aspect of the game. I will have to see how they scale as the players get more powerful, but like them so far.

 

EDIT: I doubt they will put the new dice in. It would be a big change that would not make the game very backwards compatible. They use small numbers in Star Wars to limit the number of dice.


Edited by Torg Smith, 22 September 2013 - 05:14 PM.


#35 Theofonias

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 11:18 PM

 

 

I was thinking that the Star Wars dice might be a bit gimmicky, but so far they really seem to add to the narrative aspect of the game. I will have to see how they scale as the players get more powerful, but like them so far.

 

EDIT: I doubt they will put the new dice in. It would be a big change that would not make the game very backwards compatible. They use small numbers in Star Wars to limit the number of dice.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. I don't doubt that the game is good, like I said I really enjoy their games.  My brother bought the "main book" for WH Fantasy thinking he could just pick up and play it but was burned when he saw he needed dice.  We waited for months for them to come back to the store and checking other retailers (who again were charging ridiculous amounts).  Just don't want to go through all that again.  Glad you enjoy it though, I thoroughly enjoy Star Wars.  I played the old d6 rpg back in the day and had a blast in multiple games.



#36 Torg Smith

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:18 PM

Actually, they did something for Star Wars to help with the dice. They provided a PDF that you could print onto sticky paper. You could then cut them out and put on regular dice (6, 8, and 12 sided dice). You would not need to worry about inflated dice cost.

 

http://www.fantasyfl... (high-res).pdf

 

I would recommend they do this whenever they do specialty dice.



#37 deadlyhammer

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 10:19 AM

man am i ever getting sick (lulz) of waiting for tome of *insert nurgly adjective*!

cmon guys, get at it!



#38 peterstepon

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:25 AM

Yes, they need to make a Nurgle Book.  I recall someone at Games Workshop was asked "which Chaos god is your favourite to portray" and he said Nurgle without missing a heartbeat.  It would be exciting.  All the grotesque glory of the Lord of Decay.

 

We are almost there, 3 down, 1 to go!  Even if we have to crowdfund it through kickstarter, we must make it happen.



#39 Routa-maa

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:31 AM

FFG shall reveal and release it when they are sure they have enough material for it. No sooner.


Muutokselle annamme Elämän, Elämälle annamme Muutoksen.

#40 Amroth

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

As long as that's the only hold up and they are planning to release it I have no problems at all.

 

Otherwise Peterstepon's idea of a kickstarter would be a very good idea. Gotta complete the set!






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