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It's too easy to hit with Spray


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#1 Tom Cruise

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 05:30 AM

Spray, at the moment, is a boring, slightly overpowered mechanic. 

 

All characters in the weapon’s path, a cone-shaped area extending in a 30-degree from the firer out to the weapon’s range, each count as being stuck by a separate attack with the degrees of success from the attack test.

A success hits EVERYONE in the area? I think that's a bit much. Shouldn't it be based on DoS? Changing it to "for each DoS scored on the test, one enemy within the area of effect counts as being struck by an attack" would make a lot more sense, I think.

 

Thoughts?



#2 GauntZero

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 05:39 AM

Maybe it would be good to be forced to define one "main target".

 

All other target in the weapons spray area would be checked accourding to the main target in the center of the spray.

 

All other targets than the main target get +10 on their evading attempts.

 

If range modifiers would return, you could take as an alternative, that spray dioes not work on short and point blank ranges (too narrow spray zone allows only 1 target).

 

But I could also very well go with your proposal (did I just really say that ?).

 

 

One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

This would be cineastic and give a real downside to such weapons, as they use their canister, all their ammunition in the canister, and suffer the weapons damage themselves...a nightmare.


Edited by GauntZero, 01 September 2013 - 06:03 AM.

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#3 Quadruped

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:08 PM

I think that's the point of a spray attack.
Short-ranged special weapon with greater chance to hit.
 



#4 borithan

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:23 AM

One of my problems is actually how easy it is to miss entirely. A spray attack, which allegedly fills a 30 degree slice full of stuff (flame, shot, mini missles etc), apparently only has a straight BS check to hit anything in that area. BS of 38? 39 or higher and apparently handy people shaped holes appear in your spray which means you don't hit anything. Or you accidentally point your gun into the air and fire that way... just under 2/3 of the time.

 

Now, I personally feel Spray is ridiculous for shotguns anyway (shot doesn't spread by that amount, and you have the strange element of suddenly it all falling out of the air at 30m), and I will accept that it is slightly more reasonable for flamers (as I don't actually see it as it projecting a 30 degree cone, but the firer spraying over that area in the period of the burst. However, even then, simply filling that kind of area with burning fuel should make it more likely you will hit someone.

 

Now, I understand the motive for the change (simplify, cut down on dice rolls, and make spray less powerful), but it doesn't model anything well. Personally I would say do something like grant it a big bonus to hit, and then you divide DoS between targets in the zone. That or just return it to the old rules, though that may throw the balance out.


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#5 Lautrer

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:53 AM


One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

 

 

Ahh... Great Idea. I will introduce such a rule when restarting my campaign. Bye bye Sororitas with the big flamer! :rolleyes:


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#6 Togath

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 07:58 AM

perhaps have it reduce status instead. Then it would typically take two hits so as not to overly punish those with flamers.



#7 GauntZero

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 09:05 AM

Good addition. :-)

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#8 Togath

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

On the subject of spray, it occurs to me that independent targeting's mechanic is not as transparent, but it is already extant. One could port it over and it would nicely represent the idea of a primary target and secondary hits within the designated area. The difference would be that instead of transferring DoS like with independent targeting you would just apply a single hit to each. This would mean every target besides the primary would have a much easier time of dodging, but the spray attack would still be superior to independent targeting within its niche. 



#9 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:58 AM

One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

This would be cineastic and give a real downside to such weapons, as they use their canister, all their ammunition in the canister, and suffer the weapons damage themselves...a nightmare.

 

 

seems a bit harsh for the standard weapon (which only has a very small tank) - one could just as easily say the same about most weapon's ammo. I'd love to see this as a rule/drawback for someone taking a backpack fuel supply, though - it makes the classic guard/sororitas "flamer with tanks" scary but incredibly dangerous to carry....

 

I don't know. I've never liked the "define a 30o arc" much because it felt too wargame-ey; we tend to play all combats pretty much narratively. Yes, all right, I know I can just tell you that opponents X, Y and Z are in the arc but it just reads much more mechanistically than most rules.

 

More importantly, rolling one BS roll to hit everyone in the arc feels wrong. BS should definitely come into it - I much prefer that to matter than the old "everyone make agility checks", but a BS roll should define how the shot is distributed through the target area, not how dense it is across the whole area.

 

I like Tom Cruise's suggestion of one target hit per DOS. A shotgun firing scattershot shouldn't be able to do damage to a charging line of dudes ten metres or more end-to-end. Catching a couple of adjacent people, fine.



#10 Elohiem_Militant

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

Watching the Gameplay as a gamemaster I was angry with how shotguns have spray and here's why: 1238731_626471737385108_1803228928_n.jpg

(Sorry The picture is a little large.)

 

The paper man has been shot 5 times by 1oz. Rifled slugs from 3 distances: 50yds, 40yards x2 and 25yds x2 (I think), I know It's not relevant to the post but I'm going for full disclosure. 

Also, He has been shot by 5 times by 9 pellet 00 buck. from two distances 15yds x2 and 7 yds. x3. 

 

All was fired from an 18" smooth bore with a modified choke (A mid range choke that will still allow the firing of a slug without blowing your choke out of the gun.)

 

The pellets are .32-.33 caliber, the pellet holes on opposite sides of the paper are from different shells. I know that in the distant future things might be different but if the shotgun is suppose to be similar to ours being hit by an individual pellet would be similar to being shot by a .32-.380 caliber pistol. This would probably be similar to the Autopistol. A damage rating of 1d10 would be appropriate if the target was struck by a single pellet.    

 

The spray quality however is stupid. The 'Shotgun' with a range of 30m, and spray can hit every target in a 30 degree cone, which is roughly 15m wide at 30m and covers roughly 225 square meters. Where as a real shotgun at 30m might be twice as wide of a spread as the spread portrayed in the picture. With the potential to hit 9 seperate targets (Hopelessly optimistic), or one target several times (more likely).

 

At a distance of under 7yds. It would be very hard to hit more then one target, but you would do a lot more damage then 1d10+2 I think.

 

I propose the removal of spray from the shotgun entirely, replaced with 'Special' with something along the lines of:

 

8m and under Storm or improved damage

15m ability to affect targets adjacient to primary target albeit with only the potential to hit once.

at 25m+ a bonus to hit target by +10

 

And in zero gravity or void... don't even get met started.


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#11 Harmless Decoy

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:48 PM

Agree! DoS is a great idea.

Example: Spray: +30 to hit. One enemy hit per DoS starting with the target closest to the firer and then the closest enemy to the last one hit after this. Hits from spray ignore cover.

 

With this addition maybe flamers ought to be one shot (then again I feel all 1/2 weapons would be better of being RoA 1 and one shot)

 

@Elohiem_militant: No shotguns should ever have spray, I agree to that! (further discussed in shotguns compared to flamers)



#12 Kiton

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

There's also the issue of ensuring we avoid the 3.x problem of "you can always dodge out of the way, even though the current set-up should be invoking "chunky salsa rules" on you instead of letting you dodge out of the way.

 

Very few blasts, even dead on target, are wide enough to avoid getting hopped out of.



#13 MaliciousOnion

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 09:05 PM

Area covered by a spray weapon at 30m:

sprayarea.png

 

spraycone047.png


Edited by MaliciousOnion, 05 September 2013 - 09:34 PM.

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#14 Harmless Decoy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:14 AM

Great pic Malicius Onion! If that doesnt change the devs view of the shotgun nothing will.



#15 Togath

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:54 AM

In terms of unified and consistent mechanics I actually like the idea of just using storm for shotguns, maybe with a small damage increase. Storm has the advantage of not creating silly amount of damage against a high Tb and power armored target like a massive damage increase might, but it allows a lot of stopping power without requiring many DoS. Storm also pretty much destroys novices, allowing for that instant blown away effect we viscerally want out of a shotgun.

 

Lastly, no need for a special rule if you just bump up the damage and give them storm. You could even give concussive or something similar if you wanted to use another existing quality to improve the efficacy of the weapon. 



#16 GauntZero

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 08:36 AM

Storm would still not be possible to achieve more than 2 hits though...

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#17 Harmless Decoy

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

Two hits for a shotgun sounds ok. But storm specifies that no more hits than RoA can hit. Either storm would have to change, risking unbalanced stormbolters or shotgun deserves its own scatter rule.



#18 Togath

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:28 PM

I don't think shotguns need to have the ability to hit more than twice. If you want a weapon with lots of hits corresponding with DoS then use a high RoF weapon. Making shotguns into the same thing seems silly. Shotguns should be easier to use as well, and storm is easier to use effectively in the sense that you get all of your bang out of 1 DoS. 

 

In the end the ability of a shotgun to take down a target is not dependent on sniper skills putting each pellet on target, it's that a (slightly) broadened field of impact from a large bore weapon blows unlivable holes in unarmoured targets. So, represent that with the numbers and get away from the idea that a shotgun is an AoE weapon or a machine gun, it is neither.

 

If anything the scatter special quality should mean you have +10 BS at short range or perhaps that you can make called shots to the body for free or that when you hit you roll for a hit location and then choose an adjacent hit location and apply the damage to both and count the hit as two wounds (pretty much storm in terms of end result). 



#19 Elohiem_Militant

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:11 PM

If anything the scatter special quality should mean you have +10 BS at short range or perhaps that you can make called shots to the body for free or that when you hit you roll for a hit location and then choose an adjacent hit location and apply the damage to both and count the hit as two wounds (pretty much storm in terms of end result). 

 

I kinda like this too.



#20 Tom Cruise

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

A variable damage rate based on DoS could also represent the scatter of pellets, I think. Maybe even make it that a token amount of damage is dealt when you fail to a minor extent (only one DoF)


Edited by Tom Cruise, 06 September 2013 - 10:03 PM.





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