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#1 The Glen

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

Was working on an adventure where the kill team finds a pre-heresy marine trapped in a elder stasis field for over 10,000 years.  Planning on making him a Lunar Wolf, before they had even changed their names.  He would be key to the plot so they don't just gun him down out of hand, the marine isn't evil, but obviously out of his element.  So if he survives the adventure what do you think his fate would be?  Executed, Black Shield or even turned over to the Inquisition for recruitment? 



#2 BrotherKane

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:07 AM

Coming from that chapter I'd have thought he would be thoroughly tested before being allowed to go anywhere.  After that I don't think any chapter would be able to take him in so it would be Deathwatch for him.  Not sure about black shield or not but I just can't see an actual chapter wanting a marine that hasn't done their particular brand of ritual and doesn't have (more importantly) their geneseed.



#3 Gurkhal

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 04:14 PM

I say that he would be interrogated and then executed. The Imperium is paranoid like hell and for all they know he bears the gene-seed of proved heretics and traitors.



#4 Fgdsfg

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 05:12 PM

I do agree with BrotherKane - he would no doubt be thoroughly tested before being allowed to go anywhere. He'd probably also be debriefed and interrogated, which could arguably take months.

 

Seeing as the idea of the Deathwatch is likely completely alien to him (no pun intended), he would likely have trouble acclimatizing. It is highly arguable as to whom he'd actually be serving, so it might come down simply to who would take him in. It is even possible that he'd be recognized as the last of the Luna Wolves, and thus, in a way, the Chapter Master of a Chapter of One.

Most likely, in my mind, if the Deathwatch were the one to discover him, is that - if the offer were on the table - he would join the Deathwatch permanently, as the last of the Luna Wolves. If not because he has nowhere else to go, or even if not because of his lack of actual pull as the last of the Luna Wolves, then for his own security - joining the Deathwatch would forever put him out of the reach of the Inquisition.

If some other chapter were to discover him first, however, everything is up in the air, and would greatly depend upon circumstance. Some of the more fanatical ones with a deep-seethed hatred for certain chapters, such as the Space Wolves or Black Templars, might kill him or otherwise hand him over to the Imperium Hierarchies as one of the last original traitors, and if nothing else, the more religious chapters might be offended by the fact that someone from the First Founding would wonder why the hell they're worshipping the Emperor like some kind of God.

Several other chapters might have considerable trouble "taking him in", seeing as how they have very chapter-specific secrets that they would like to keep, and the Last of the Luna Wolves might be similarly shocked to see how wrong some things have gone in his absence. Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Blood Drinkers, Excoriators, Black Dragons, etc, have serious issues with their gene-seeds, and are believed to keep secrets that may or may not result in them being declared Excommunicate Traitoris if revealed.

Others, such as the Blood Ravens (jeeez, there's a lot of "Blood"), might have secrets to keep that would be fully in line with his own history (it have been implied that the Blood Ravens stem from a group of Thousand Sons that did not join in the Horus Heresy, and was not affected by Ahriman's betrayal).

 

I say that he would be interrogated and then executed. The Imperium is paranoid like hell and for all they know he bears the gene-seed of proved heretics and traitors.

If he's found by the Adeptus Astartes, I find it highly doubtful that they'd ever hand him over to the Inquisition. He's an ancient relic and they'd probably treat him like a living half-god, simply for being of the first founding. In most cases, anyway. I would say, anyway.


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#5 Gurkhal

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:32 AM



I say that he would be interrogated and then executed. The Imperium is paranoid like hell and for all they know he bears the gene-seed of proved heretics and traitors.

If he's found by the Adeptus Astartes, I find it highly doubtful that they'd ever hand him over to the Inquisition. He's an ancient relic and they'd probably treat him like a living half-god, simply for being of the first founding. In most cases, anyway. I would say, anyway.

 

While its of course possible that other Adeptus Astartes would show initial leniancy, that gentleness would be gone the instant they discover that he's from the hated arch-traitor Horus' legion. They don't even need to hand him over to the Inquisition to make him suffer before they kill him.



#6 spector

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:34 AM

So I think that

  1. As above BrotherKane, Gurkhal, and Fgdsfg have already said it best.
  2. The Moment that anybody else finds out “eventually an inquisitor will know” they’ll probably send out assassins (there are quite a few puritans inquisitors in DW Watch Fortess Erioch ) because the individual represents a unknown factor best left unknown, I think that even knowing the truth would be a danger so any persons associated with the ancient Astartes would also be a liability in the eyes of a lot of the inquisitors (like everywhere) and their respective chapters.
  3. The DW Watch Fortess Erioch also may be prepared for this already because they have the “Black Shield” it also alludes to such in one of the DW books (can’t remember which) about a bunch of stasis tubes in the vault already, in which case.
  4. The marine or marines that come out may have instructions for the people and or the players and the watch fortress erioch and if he is a black shield already, in which case he does not have to say anything and be accepted by the powers that be (maybe). Also they may come out the vault or are taken out by some one that already knows about them (maybe the Legio Custodeus) that have instructions for them (input your favorite heresy hero or villain that was believed slain) umm makes for a really interesting games.
  5. There would be a lot of interested parties for the possible knowledge that this ancient individual may hold (regardless if he’s from a traitor legion or not) and a lot of chapters of space marines that have missing primarchs and such will want to hear this person out.  I believe they would go out of their way to protect this SM.  (I know I’m repeating what’s already been said but).
  6. According to the fluff there are a lot of loyalist that did survive the heresy (it seems) so there maybe a mechanism for such events I’m sure this had happened before with all those loyalist in the traitor legions refusing orders and such. And at the time of the heresy the SM was on the inside of the traitor legion so he would have a significant value to the emperor or more likely the sigilite, maybe his dubious reward for information was that he get stuck in a can and pops out after x amount of time maybe they didn’t trust him one-hundred percent or they may have wanted to wait till the war was over and then un-freeze him.
  7. I think the people who would have first dibs on this SM out of time (other than the players) would be the Deathwatch as an institution and he would have a trial (before or after interrogation), I also think that he would be judged by other space marines and not the inquisition (players and gm have a great opportunity to have a Court episode or episodes). 

 

 

 

This is cool, this is something I’ve been trying to figure out as well.  I had my players playing a pre-heresy game where they were a special unit of mixed legions and every one had their own squad (the rogue trader game we were playing got tired really fast so we came up with this), the guys wanted to play something really epic.

Anyway as pre-heresy SM they were fighting the last living actual biological Necrons, these necrons i based off the movie Prometheus along with the human origin concept, so the large grey skinned giants didn’t like the fact that there “Human experiment” which would have been able to hold the souls of the other machine necrons was manipulated by the slann, the slann found out and decided to manipulate the humans so that they could not be used by the machine necrons, so the Emperor knows all this stuff already and sends out the players (enter Prometheus movie except with space marines) to bust Engineer a$$, but like in the movie the engineers created the xenomorph plague which effects all biological life that was created and manipulated by the slann/old ones (this was a sort of weapon of last resort by the Engineers) and this is were I ran out of ideas for this campaign I was going to say that this is where Tyranids came from.  Of course the players never figured that out but I alluded to it.

I called them “the A team”, so after playing thru the movie and a crap load of adventures, they loved it so much they made me take there toons into the future in the Jericho reach) and that’s were I left it off until this thread, but know (thanks to The Glen for inspiring me)  I will make their original rogue trader toons have a clause in their warrant that says when they receive a particular astropathic message they must go to watch fortress erioch to the vault and find a bunch of stasis tubes in the DW Watch Fortess Erioch “Vault” and then the players play the SM (or something like that, I’m sure I’ll think up a lot of Jericho adventures for their Rogue trader toons before they can get permission to go near the fortress much less the vault). 



#7 Cail

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:46 AM

I actually think the biggest problem here is what was stated about his confusion regarding the Imperial Creed. As soon as he tells his version of the events from the heresy, especially given his status as a member of THE chapter that insighted it (from the position of most imperial authorities) he's likely to be executed as a Heretic just for explaining his past.

He may not be able to adapt to life in the current Imperium as well. Knowing that most of its current doctrines are against what his legion would have fought so hard for. So the question of whether he would even WANT to serve the Imperium is probably the thing you have to consider from the perspective of making the character believable.

 

There's also the question of his feelings on the Codex Astartes and the dissolution of the original legions during the 2nd founding. Remember that the 2nd founding nearly caused a second heresy from the Imperial Fists because of the outrage that the Ultramarines were calling the shots (and given that the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines is always listed as one of the 12 high lord of Terra, this isn't entirely unfounded) so how a member member of one of the original 20 might feel about these kinds of things is a really interesting thing to explore with the edition of that kind of character and really shouldn't be wasted.

 

Having said that, most of my players are very 'in character' and would probably execute him themselves as soon as he started saying the Emperor wasn't really a God.


Edited by Cail, 30 September 2013 - 04:52 AM.

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#8 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:34 AM

I actually think the biggest problem here is what was stated about his confusion regarding the Imperial Creed. As soon as he tells his version of the events from the heresy, especially given his status as a member of THE chapter that insighted it (from the position of most imperial authorities) he's likely to be executed as a Heretic just for explaining his past.

He may not be able to adapt to life in the current Imperium as well. Knowing that most of its current doctrines are against what his legion would have fought so hard for. So the question of whether he would even WANT to serve the Imperium is probably the thing you have to consider from the perspective of making the character believable.
 
There's also the question of his feelings on the Codex Astartes and the dissolution of the original legions during the 2nd founding. Remember that the 2nd founding nearly caused a second heresy from the Imperial Fists because of the outrage that the Ultramarines were calling the shots (and given that the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines is always listed as one of the 12 high lord of Terra, this isn't entirely unfounded) so how a member member of one of the original 20 might feel about these kinds of things is a really interesting thing to explore with the edition of that kind of character and really shouldn't be wasted.
 
Having said that, most of my players are very 'in character' and would probably execute him themselves as soon as he started saying the Emperor wasn't really a God.


Most of the Adeptus Astartes does not venerate the God-Emperor as a God, though. So if your players are in-character, depending on the chapter, they might want to read up a bit and stop thinking that they're part of the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition. :P

Anyway, where'd you get that Chapter Master of the Ultramarines is always one of the 12 High Lords of Terra? The Adeptus Astartes are specifically left out of the High Lords of Terra, and not only that, but Rowboat Girlyman himself believed that the Adeptus Astartes exists to protect mankind, never rule it; Rowboat Girlyman being the Primarch of the Ultramarines, I'd consider it doubly unlikely that the Ultramarines in particular would vie for power in this manner.

Space Marines have always been, to the best of my knowledge, left outside of the regular chains of command. Even for Inquisitorial Ordos that have Space Marine attached to them as their Chamber Militants, such as the Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos, have to carefully word their orders as requests of aid from independent Astartes Chapters (which the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch actually is).


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#9 DJSunhammer

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

That isn't actually true regarding the Grey Knights. More often than not the GKs are under the direct command of the Ordo Malleus. Read the Emperor's Gift for more detail.



#10 Fgdsfg

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:39 PM

While it's true that Inquisitors from the Ordo Malleus routinely command Grey Knights, the Ordo Malleus as an organization itself does not command the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights is an autonomous chapter within the Adeptus Astartes.

It may be a technicality, but it's an important technicality.

Glaivan spat on the stone floor and a tiny hygiene servitor scuttled over to clean up the spittle. "To think. An Inquisitor. Radicalism grows ever stronger, I fear."

It was a measure of the respect in which Glaivan was held that he could voice such concerns freely. The Grey Knights were technically autonomous, but the Ordo Malleus were in practice their masters, and they certainly didn't want the Grey Knights harboring seditious opinions about the Inquisition. Radicalism was, officially, a non-existent threat, and that was all the Malleus would say to the Grey Knights about it.

Nyxos consulted a data-slate handed to him by an advisor. "We all know what is happening at Cadia, Grand Master. The Eye of Terror has opened and Cadia could fall. The ordo needs me there to conduct interrogatiors still operating on Chaos-controlled territory, so I cannot lead a response myself. Inquisitor Ligeia will have authority over this operation. On her behalf I am requesting that you assemble a Grey Knights strike force with all possible haste for her to use as she sees fit in investigating the possibilities this information presents."

Tencendur did not look impressed. He glanced at Ligeia. "The galaxy is a large place, Inquisitor. Do you know where Ghargatuloth will return? Khorion IX was destroyed by exterminatus."

Tencendur shook his head and pushed the book back across the table. "Not good enough, not if this is all you have to go on. You have said so yourself, Nyxos, the Eye has opened and we may all be called upon to stem the tide. We have companies on their way to Cadia already and I will soon be among them. I cannot conscience ignoring such a duty to follow your guesswork."

"Do you know," said Ligeia calmly, "what Ghargatuloth was?"

Tencendur bristled. Alaric imagined he was not used to being talked back to, even by an Inquisitor.

All from Ben Counter's Grey Knights.
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#11 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:10 AM

Space Marines have always been, to the best of my knowledge, left outside of the regular chains of command.

They have. Although there are several work-arounds, which get used from time to time.

 

The Deathwatch, for example, are a force of astartes but in the process of becoming the Deathwatch, they sometimes swear themselves into Inquisitorial service in a way that (temporarily) specifically waives the Astartes' independence from Inquisitorial authority (see the Graphic Novel Deathwatch and the Talon Squad short stories). The Grey Knights are definitely an Adeptus Astartes Chapter (#666, in fact), but I'm not sure if the Deathwatch officially has 'chapter status'.

 

The other way around, a Space Marine, even a Chapter Master, has no claim to authority over Guard or Navy forces. A Lord-Governor Subsector or Lord-Governor Sector, on the other hand, does (via the Administratum to the Departmento Munitorium to the assorted Lords Militant).

 

By pure, legally distinct coincidence, Marneus Calgar, the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, happens to look a great deal like Marneus Calgar, Lord Macragge, the Lord-Governor Ultramar. Maybe they're cousins or something...



#12 Fgdsfg

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

 

By pure, legally distinct coincidence, Marneus Calgar, the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines, happens to look a great deal like Marneus Calgar, Lord Macragge, the Lord-Governor Ultramar. Maybe they're cousins or something...

 

Well the Ultramarines were always hypocrites, anyway. There never did seem to be anything in the Imperium that specifically prevents double-authority, even though it's been a problem numerous times, with people getting command over multiple fields at once.

Chapter homeworlds are technically under the jurisdiction of the individual chapters, though, and don't even pay tithes to the Administratum, so I guess that it creates some kind of legal greyzone. The Ultramarines have a small miniature empire, though, which I'm not sure is entirely.. legal.

Either way, I just find it odd that Cail said that one of the Ultramarines is always a High Lord of Terra, while the Astartes is virtually forbidden to hold such a position (although it would be hilarious to see a Space Wolf or Black Templar take the seat just to piss the Ultramarines off and take a dump on their "Codex Astartes").

To my knowledge, only one Astartes was ever a High Lord of Terra, and that was Rowboat Girlyman himself, and there's some pretty strong arguments that he wasn't technically a Space Marine, since he was a Primarch. Likewise, the Custodes can't really be considered Space Marines either, just because they are created in pretty much the same way.


Edited by Fgdsfg, 02 October 2013 - 09:58 AM.

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#13 PhilOfCalth

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 10:36 AM

To my knowledge, only one Astartes was ever a High Lord of Terra, and that was Rowboat Girlyman himself, and there's some pretty strong arguments that he wasn't technically a Space Marine, since he was a Primarch. Likewise, the Custodes can't really be considered Space Marines either, just because they are created in pretty much the same way.

 

 

Not to derail the topic but where did you find information on how Custodes are created? I had a concept for a DW game but it entirely relied on some prety major differences in how Custodes were made. However, I had a hard time finding any information in this regard.



#14 Fgdsfg

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:31 PM

 

To my knowledge, only one Astartes was ever a High Lord of Terra, and that was Rowboat Girlyman himself, and there's some pretty strong arguments that he wasn't technically a Space Marine, since he was a Primarch. Likewise, the Custodes can't really be considered Space Marines either, just because they are created in pretty much the same way.

 

 

Not to derail the topic but where did you find information on how Custodes are created? I had a concept for a DW game but it entirely relied on some prety major differences in how Custodes were made. However, I had a hard time finding any information in this regard.

 

Eh, I meant in the most general of terms. The Custodes are, much like the Adeptus Astartes, created through similar processes of genetic modification, but it's supposedly a much more involved process, and each individual Custodes is a "unique investment".

Custodes have been described as being to the Space Marines what Space Marines are to humans.

But speaking specifics, I don't think much have been said on how the Custodes were created at all. I may be wrong. Check out the Custodes article on Lexicanum, though.


Real men earn their fun

Unified WH40kRP Ruleset Homebrew - Personal Notes
Talking Necrons. Dreadknights. Centurion Armour. Sororitas-murdering Grey Knights.
These things are dumb and do not exist. This is non-negotiable and undebatable.


#15 PhilOfCalth

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

Yea I got all of that in my last search. I was thinking of using it as a way to get a "female spacemarine" and building an overarching story based around it, but anyway back to the thread at hand. You know before derailment!



#16 DJSunhammer

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 06:37 PM

Ah yes, female space marines. The bane of every 40k forum ever.


Edited by DJSunhammer, 02 October 2013 - 06:38 PM.

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#17 PhilOfCalth

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:10 PM

The biggest problem with the DW game...



#18 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 02:34 AM

The Ultramarines have a small miniature empire, though, which I'm not sure is entirely.. legal.

 

It's specifically Lord Macragge, who happens to also always be the chapter master, rather than the ultramarines as a whole (whose authority can't extend beyond their chapter homeworld). Legal hair-splitting, perhaps, but apparantly acceptible to the Imperium.

 

This gets discussed a bit in the Badab War background, because apparently Lugft* Huron used Ultramar as legal precedent when he took direct rule over the Maelstrom worlds.

 

 

 

 

Re custodes: they are gene-modified, but given the description of their names, it sounds like the infants who are modified are bred to the purpose (Amon's name elements include his 'birth-creche' or something like that), rather than ever having been a 'normal' person. Other than that, yes, they have implants which - whilst probably different to the astartes suite of implants  - fulfil broadly the same function (toughness, enhanced senses, etc).

 

They are, on average, more dangerous than a marine. Marines have beaten them in a fight, but usually come away heavily injured and with several dead. I think about the only marine who's properly put a custodian in his place to date is Tagore of the World Eaters.

 

Which is fair enough as the man is pretty much the Incredible Hulk. You really, really won't like him when he's angry.

Granted the custodian he beats is no longer on 'front-line duty', but the Tagore attacks an armed and armoured astartes with no weapons and beats the custodian to death with his own spine.

 

 

* However the hell you say that.

 


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#19 DJSunhammer

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 12:18 PM

The G is silent, his name is pronounced Luft.

 

On another note, aren't some of the Custodians extra badass? I vaguely remember Valdor sparring on equal terms with a Primarch (Dorn?).


Edited by DJSunhammer, 04 October 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#20 PhilOfCalth

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:20 PM

Yes yes they are. I had intended it to be a "young" female custodian... Intent on learning Space marine customs, strategim, tactics, etc.






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