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Dual Wielding Melee Weapons w/mods & attachments


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#1 AndreKeller

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

I want to discuss dual wielding melee rules, and the effect mods and attachments have on them.

 

I play a marauder/gadgeteer, and am trying to decide whether to use a vibroaxe or two vibroswords.

 

If I were to use a vibroaxe, I would tinker/juryrig it for +1 hardpoint and +1 damage, and mod it with balanced hilt + both mods, mono-molecular edge +both mods, and superior customization it. Nothing controversial there and I understand how it all works.

 

Now, here is the confusing part. What do I do if I have 2 vibroswords, mods/attachment wise? I would do the same things I did to my mainhand vibrosword that I did to the vibroaxe, namely tinker/juryrig it for +1 hardpoint and +1 damage, and mod it with balanced hilt + both mods, mono-molecular edge + both mods, and superior customization it. But what do I do to the offhand? Is the offhand weapon "used in the attack" or just something you hit with if you generate the 2 advantage and trigger it? My interpretation is the latter. It seems silly to me for someone wielding two balanced hilted vibroswords with +1 accurate mod on each to roll 4 boost die every attack, likewise would it be silly for them to autogenerate two advantage for wiedling two superior customized vibroswords. Would the optimal "offhand" vibrosword load out look more like juryrig it for +1 damage, and mod it with mono-molecular edge + both mods, serrated edge, and superior customization it (for the +1 damage, you wouldn't gain the +1 advantage)?

 

In addition, how does having two defensive weapons work? I know about armor & cover not stacking since they both give 1 defense, but defensive says it increases your melee defense by 1, and the creators have been cited as saying that two sources of defense don't stack, but multiple factors that increase defense do. What has been the community ruling on this?

 

Thanks alot if you've read this whole thing. Just trying to get the specifics of the rules clamped down. Feel free to segment your answers into "this is raw" and "this is how my group plays" as well. Thank you!

 

 



#2 Voice

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

I want to discuss dual wielding melee rules, and the effect mods and attachments have on them.

 

I play a marauder/gadgeteer, and am trying to decide whether to use a vibroaxe or two vibroswords.

 

If I were to use a vibroaxe, I would tinker/juryrig it for +1 hardpoint and +1 damage, and mod it with balanced hilt + both mods, mono-molecular edge +both mods, and superior customization it. Nothing controversial there and I understand how it all works.

 

Now, here is the confusing part. What do I do if I have 2 vibroswords, mods/attachment wise? I would do the same things I did to my mainhand vibrosword that I did to the vibroaxe, namely tinker/juryrig it for +1 hardpoint and +1 damage, and mod it with balanced hilt + both mods, mono-molecular edge + both mods, and superior customization it. But what do I do to the offhand? Is the offhand weapon "used in the attack" or just something you hit with if you generate the 2 advantage and trigger it? My interpretation is the latter. It seems silly to me for someone wielding two balanced hilted vibroswords with +1 accurate mod on each to roll 4 boost die every attack, likewise would it be silly for them to autogenerate two advantage for wiedling two superior customized vibroswords. Would the optimal "offhand" vibrosword load out look more like juryrig it for +1 damage, and mod it with mono-molecular edge + both mods, serrated edge, and superior customization it (for the +1 damage, you wouldn't gain the +1 advantage)?

 

In addition, how does having two defensive weapons work? I know about armor & cover not stacking since they both give 1 defense, but defensive says it increases your melee defense by 1, and the creators have been cited as saying that two sources of defense don't stack, but multiple factors that increase defense do. What has been the community ruling on this?

 

Thanks alot if you've read this whole thing. Just trying to get the specifics of the rules clamped down. Feel free to segment your answers into "this is raw" and "this is how my group plays" as well. Thank you!

I *think* the intention is that the weapon you roll the attack for is the "weapon used in the attack", and the second weapon is just the bonus damage.  To support this conclusion, I'll reference the fact that until you've already made the roll, you don't know whether you're going to have enough Advantage to trigger the hit with the secondary weapon.  If you don't know if it's going to be in play, how can you add the bonuses from it to the dice pool?

 

As for multiple defensive weapons stacking?  I don't think they would, because the source of the bonus is the same (a weapon with the defensive property).  If you found another source of defense (an attachment, for example), I'd say that would stack with the defensive property, because the source is different.  But I freely admit I could be wrong on this one.


Edited by Voice, 27 August 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#3 Endrik Tenebris

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:03 AM

However, if you were using two weapons built to be aerodynamic and effective to swing, wouldn't it be easier to do than if you had one and then one that is clunky and awkward?  I don't think the Defensive should stack, but I could see things like Accurate and Superior both triggering, since it would be easier to reliably hit with two lighter, better made weapons than with one.


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#4 Darth_Rapier

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:05 AM

Well according to the rules it would work like this...

 

You make the attack... you use the weapon that has the least amount of bonus, basically is the worst to hit with + 1 extra difficulty die... so if the mods you made to the primary make it easier to hit with then you would actually use the attack value of the offhand weapon.

 

Now I think at this point if you hit you can apply the damage from the primary... and then if you get 2 advantages as well apply the damage from the second weapon.

 

So it might be to you best advantage to keep both vibroswords identical. but that's just my opinion.



#5 Tenrousei

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:47 AM

I would agree with Darth_Rapier on this one.  A very simplified rendition of two weapon fighting basically states that you make the "worst" possible pool of Characteristis+Skill then up the difficulty by one. I would say that you would apply the least ammount of bonuses from whatever weapons you were using.

 

Of course you're never required to attack with both weapons in a round, so if you wanted to you could always use the "off-hand" weapon for effect.


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#6 Jegergryte

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:05 AM

I'm of two minds on this, but I do think that Darth_Rapier has pointed out something important here. You attack with the worst dice pool you would have based on the combination of weapons. While from memory I can only remember it specifying skill/characteristic combo, I'd think it logical to follow this through on attachments and mods.

 

I'd still rule that, if one of the weapons has the superior quality, that if you hit you generate 1 advantage if its your main weapon at least, but you would not benefit from the Accurate x quality unless both weapons have it, and if different Accurate rating, then use the lowest. If both weapons are Superior then one could either just simply cap it at 1 auto-advantage, which I'm leaning towards, but you could also let the second weapon generate 1 additional advantage after you spend 2 advantages to activate the second hit/damage. Thereby for instance hit twice and also activate a critical injury with one weapon, or both..

 

As for Defensive. I wouldn't let it stack. For the reasons supplied by others.


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#7 Rookhelm

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:28 AM

 If both weapons are Superior then one could either just simply cap it at 1 auto-advantage, which I'm leaning towards, but you could also let the second weapon generate 1 additional advantage after you spend 2 advantages to activate the second hit/damage. Thereby for instance hit twice and also activate a critical injury with one weapon, or both..

 

As for Defensive. I wouldn't let it stack. For the reasons supplied by others.

 

 

All of the stacking stuff is making my head hurt, but what I've quoted, I agree with.  If both are superior, the second one doesn't auto-generate advantage until you've spent 2 advantage to use the second weapon in the first place.  So, essentially, you're getting one advantage back.

 

and I would agree that you don't get 2 defense.  Seems OP.  If it were me, I'd upgrade them both as much as I could so they were identical, just to avoid having to figure out the rules.  But if not, forming the "worst" dice pool seems to be the way to go.  Re-read the paragraph on two weapon fighting if you need to, I think it has a lot to say about if the weapons are different. 



#8 Satoris

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:09 PM

Hi there,

 

Going off of the book, it clearly states that multiple sources of defense do not stack, so does that mean that the OP character wearing armor granting 1 defense value would not gain any benefit of the defensive value of even one vibrosword, as this is another source of defense and both have the same number? if the vibrosword was defensive 2, it would override the armor correct?



#9 2P51

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:58 PM

You make the attack with the worse of the two weapons.  In a case of identical weapons you make the attack check with one.  In a case where there are multiple boost dice I would have the player roll the extra boost dice after the main attack if both weapons hit and allow the results to be added in but only after a successful attack that landed both hits.


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#10 Col. Orange

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:26 AM

Going off of the book, it clearly states that multiple sources of defense do not stack, so does that mean that the OP character wearing armor granting 1 defense value would not gain any benefit of the defensive value of even one vibrosword, as this is another source of defense and both have the same number? if the vibrosword was defensive 2, it would override the armor correct?

 

I thought the Defensive trait increased your Defence rating, not granted a fixed level of it.

(This is a game term I struggled with previously and am still hazy about.)

Short of it is that one extra Setback die doesn't seem to break the game.


Edited by Col. Orange, 07 January 2014 - 06:59 AM.

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#11 sithlord71

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:31 AM

Here is a very lethal combo of mods thats gives a nasty bite in melee.

Vibrosword with the mods of mono-molecular edge and superior weapon customization.

End results: The crit is reduced by 1 and the damage is increased by 1 and grants an automatic advantage.

In the end, this weapon can crit almost every time.Since the crit would now become 1 rather than 2,and the automatic advantage granted by superior weapon specialization would allow a crit with ease.Not to mention what the vibrosword normally allows for special qualities.As long as the damage after soak exceeds the targets soak value,you can crit.



#12 TheLonelySandPerson

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:46 PM

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!
I'm going to be the dissenting voice on this. Suppose your character went Florentine style and dual-wielded a superior balanced monomolecular vibrosword in his main hand, and a completely standard vibroknife in his off-hand for the occasional bonus jab. It would be pretty silly for him not to get the advantages of his tricked-out sword, wouldn't it?

I see nothing unbalanced about the pair of swords you propose. You paid thousands of credits for the priviledge and used up two different instances of Jury Rigged and Tinkerer that could have gone to other gear. It's a lot of damage, yes, but you payed through the nose for it. And don't forget, when you dual wield, your combat checks are all one die harder than they would have been with the vibro-axe.

That said, I would not let the different copies of Superior, Accurate, et cetera stack. Only the weapon you're attacking with counts for all that. I would file Defensive under the "same sources" clause -- even though it's an add, you would only benefit from the add of the best Defensive weapon you're holding.

Ultimately, though, the official ruling is whatever your GM says.

#13 InOzWeTrust

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

I'm personally of the opinion that abilities like Accurate/Superior/Laser Sights should apply to the Combined Check. And think about that term because it factors into a lot of the decisionmaking for this.

 

The book says that the character denotes a primary weapon for the check and makes the attach with that, so that means that RAW 2 X-30 Lancers with Accurate only add 1 Boost despite both being highly accurate weapons. The reverse of this would mean that if the 2nd had a Blaster Actuating Module attached it would deal more damage and have a Setback but that would be ignored since it’s your choice to use the more accurate one for the check. Thus it makes no sense.

 

It had been proposed that an accurate offhand could apply the Boost after the fact however the damage is calculated as a reults of the Combined Check. So you just roll the Boost/Setbacks and add/subtract the damage? Seems like a lot of extra bookkeeping.

 

The book says that the Combined Check determines which Characteristic & Skill is less and uses that for the attack completely ignoring any mention of weapon qualities or additional modifiers only caring so far as to add an additional difficulty for different weapon skills in use. As the attack is a Combined Check I feel all weapon qualities should be taken into affect, you have taken a lot of time & credits to make your characters gear better and it should refelct on the attack. Plus it’s significantly less powerful than Auto-Fire, Dual Wielding can only target a single enemy and can only get 2 attacks where Auto-Fire hits any number of targets once the Advantage is there.

 

 So I ask to you what makes more sense:

1) 2 Accurate/Superior weapons add their bonus to the checks together or

2) 1 Laser Sighted, Superior, Accurate mainhand completely determines if you hit and the offhand with Setbacks/Inferior is completely removed from the equation only adding bonus damage

 

 

Superior Quality

Superior adds 1 Advantage to any check made with the weapon and is not contingent on hitting with the weapon so 2 Superior guns would (in absense of Threat) automatically hit with both weapons and that’s fine it costs 10,000 credits to do that to both weapons.

 

Defensive Quality

"Defensive weapons are particularly good at fending off incoming melee attacks. A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon's Defensive rating."

 

Defense (From the FAQ)

 

“Q. Some armor, talents, and item qualities provide a static defense value, while others specifically increase a defense value. How do they interact?

A. When a character can choose between two static defense values, (for example, if he is in cover and is wearing armor that has a defense value), he chooses the better of the two values. Then any armor, talents, and item qualities he has that “increase” his defense value are added to the static value he chose. (Cover has been clarified in the errata to reflect this.)

 

As a side note, the prone condition simply adds [Boost] or [Setback]∫ to ranged or melee attacks targeting the character (respectively), and therefore may stack with the character’s defense value.”

 

Thus yes, 2 Vibroswords RAW do provide +2 defense whether in cover or while wearing armor with a Defense die. Obviously if knocked prone you wouldn’t be able to parry with swords as well tho but special situations is why you have creative and adaptive GMs.


Edited by InOzWeTrust, 01 March 2014 - 11:30 AM.


#14 2P51

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:09 AM

I don't think there is a right answer.  It's just too easy to come up with a narrative explanation anyway you want to go I think. For instance you could say the two weapons were superior customized together with some kind of integrated holo sight that makes them ideal for being dual wielded.  After all if a GM and group stick to the RAW that's 10k just for the superior, that's a lot of bones laid out to not allow it imo.


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#15 pashacordaro420

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:22 PM

I also have a question about duel wielding blaster would it also work the same way but with two blasters?

#16 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:51 PM

The right answer is ultimately the one that you and the GM can agree upon.  Unlike the past couple versions of D&D, EotE is one of those games that doesn't try to spell out every single rule instance, and instead gives the GM the opportunity to exercise their own judgment.

 

Personally, I'd go just using whichever weapon (melee or ranged) is denoted as being the "primary" weapon in regards to things that affect the attack roll (Accurate, Superior, Inaccurate, Inferior), but that if the PC wanted to activate a weapon quality from the secondary weapon (such as attacking with a vibrosword in the main hand and a truncheon in the off-hand and wanting to trigger the truncheon's Disorient quality), then I'd let them do it, even if they didn't trigger a hit from the second weapon.  While I suspect most players would rather spend the necessary Advantage to get that second hit, I could see instances where it might be more beneficial to instead spend those Advantage to trigger an activated quality from the off-hand weapon instead.


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