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The X-Wing and other Rebel Fighters


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#1 Dulahan

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:47 AM

To start with, we've got the initial problem of the Y-Wing being a base to work around, since it is technically official due to Edge.

 

That being said, wow.  I mean, sure, the X-Wing is the premier ship of the Alliance.  But it isn't supposed to be better in every possible way.  And what we have now?  It is.  

 

Somehow it is more heavilly armored than a Y-Wing or B-Wing, both of which are supposed to be more durable and heavily armored in the fluff.  For cripes sake, the B-Wing is a Bomber meant to go after Capital Ships!  While the Y Wing is a "Fighter Bomber" noted as "resilient and heavilly shielded, but slow and ungainly compared to other Rebel Ships"  (See Wookiepedia)

 

So I think it is definitely time to look at the relative stats of all the fighters, with a fine comb, and at least make them fit the fluff.   Indeed, one case is the Y-Wing, in the OT alone when it gets hit, it generally  takes two to take it out after shields go down.  While the X-wing goes up in one.

 

Then of course, once we have some more representative options for the various -Wings, we'll probably need to go back over the TIEs again too. 

 

 



#2 Ineti

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:59 AM

The Y and B do have more hull points than the X...
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#3 FangGrip

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:21 AM

To start with, we've got the initial problem of the Y-Wing being a base to work around, since it is technically official due to Edge.

 

That being said, wow.  I mean, sure, the X-Wing is the premier ship of the Alliance.  But it isn't supposed to be better in every possible way.  And what we have now?  It is.  

 

Somehow it is more heavilly armored than a Y-Wing or B-Wing, both of which are supposed to be more durable and heavily armored in the fluff.  For cripes sake, the B-Wing is a Bomber meant to go after Capital Ships!  While the Y Wing is a "Fighter Bomber" noted as "resilient and heavilly shielded, but slow and ungainly compared to other Rebel Ships"  (See Wookiepedia)

 

So I think it is definitely time to look at the relative stats of all the fighters, with a fine comb, and at least make them fit the fluff.   Indeed, one case is the Y-Wing, in the OT alone when it gets hit, it generally  takes two to take it out after shields go down.  While the X-wing goes up in one.

 

Then of course, once we have some more representative options for the various -Wings, we'll probably need to go back over the TIEs again too. 

 

It may be a reflection of how much older the Y-wing is from the X-wing.  With advancements in armor technology, less armor thickness may in fact be better than older armor.


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#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:43 PM

It could also have to do with most modern Y-wings having most of their external plating removed from everything behind the cockpit for ease of access.

 

That said, I still don't agree with Armor 5 on an X-wing (or on a Ghtroc 720 for whenever a finalized version of it comes out of the EotE Beta). Armor 3 or 4 (likely 4) seems more fitting.


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#5 Chortles

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 06:56 PM

Unless the Y-wing can somehow be errata'd, then I'd agree that yes, the X-wing sounds like it's out of whack for what its role is/was relative to the Y-wing, since existing fluff had reasons to use it besides having ion cannons while X-wings didn't.


 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:08 PM

Unless the Y-wing can somehow be errata'd, then I'd agree that yes, the X-wing sounds like it's out of whack for what its role is/was relative to the Y-wing, since existing fluff had reasons to use it besides having ion cannons while X-wings didn't.

Larger magazines for the proton torpedoes being the major one. Does it carry more than the X-wing in AoR?

 

There is also the option to give the Y-wing a greater Sensor Range for the version with a locked forward turret as it was often employed as a reconaissance unit.


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#7 Chortles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:53 AM

In canon the X-wing has six torpedoes to the Y-wing's eight and the EotE Y-wing has its eight torpedoes, so while I don't have the AoR beta book that should be two torpedoes more and light ion cannons (plus a gunner and Fire Arc All in the S3) in the Y-wing's favor. The thing is, based on both the d6 stats (Rebel Alliance Sourcebook) and the Saga d20 stats (Starships of the Galaxy) the X-wing "should" essentially be a tweaked Z-95.  :P Here's what I propose!

 


Silhouette: 3

Speed: 4

Handling: +1

 

Defense: Fore 1, Port -, Starboard -, Aft 0

Armor: 3

HT Threshold: 11

SS Threshold: 8

 

Hull Type/Class: Starfighter/T-65 X-Wing.

Manufacturer: Incom.

Hyperdrive: Primary: Class 1, Backup: None.

Navicomputer: None--Astromech Droid socket.

Sensor Range: Close.

Ship's Complement: One pilot, one astromech droid.

Encumbrance Capacity: 10.

Passenger Capacity: 0.

Consumables: One week.

Cost/Rarity: 90,000 credits/5.

Customization Hard Points: 1.

Weapons: Wingtip Mounted Medium Laser Cannons (Fire Arc Forward; Damage 6; Critical 3; Range [Close]; Linked 3), Forward Mounted Proton Torpedo Launchers (Fire Arc Forward; Damage 8; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Breach 6, Blast 6, Guided 2, Limited Ammo 6, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 1).

As for the Y-wing, you're thinking of the separate "Y-wing Longprobe" variant (BTL-A4 LP) of the existing locked-forward turret version (BTL-A4) that's already in the EotE CRB, but in addition to the longer sensor range* it's also got a full navcomputer (not limited to the astromech droid's 10-jump memory) and a backup Class 6 hyperdrive, both where the gunner would have been on the two-seater (BTL-S3).

 

* In the d6 2nd Edition game's Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, the A4 LP has double the sensor range and focus area radius of the two-seater S3. Compared to the LP, the X-wing (T-65B) has only 5 less Search range and 1 less Focus radius, but 10 less Passive range and 20 less Scan range.


Edited by Chortles, 23 August 2013 - 02:18 AM.

 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#8 Thomson

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:39 AM

 

To start with, we've got the initial problem of the Y-Wing being a base to work around, since it is technically official due to Edge.

 

That being said, wow.  I mean, sure, the X-Wing is the premier ship of the Alliance.  But it isn't supposed to be better in every possible way.  And what we have now?  It is.  

 

Somehow it is more heavilly armored than a Y-Wing or B-Wing, both of which are supposed to be more durable and heavily armored in the fluff.  For cripes sake, the B-Wing is a Bomber meant to go after Capital Ships!  While the Y Wing is a "Fighter Bomber" noted as "resilient and heavilly shielded, but slow and ungainly compared to other Rebel Ships"  (See Wookiepedia)

 

So I think it is definitely time to look at the relative stats of all the fighters, with a fine comb, and at least make them fit the fluff.   Indeed, one case is the Y-Wing, in the OT alone when it gets hit, it generally  takes two to take it out after shields go down.  While the X-wing goes up in one.

 

Then of course, once we have some more representative options for the various -Wings, we'll probably need to go back over the TIEs again too. 

 

It may be a reflection of how much older the Y-wing is from the X-wing.  With advancements in armor technology, less armor thickness may in fact be better than older armor.

 

There was basically no technological advancement in the Star Wars Galaxy for thousands of years. What is "modern" and what is "old" is usually a matter of fashion, not technological advancements. Only exception may have been the Death Star which maybe had the biggest Hypermatter reactor ever built. The EU played a lot with a sense of technological advancements, but this may just have been an impression since the Empire destroyed a lot of what was already there.

Btw, this one explains it pretty well:

http://www.theforce....html#techstatic

 

 

 

 


Edited by Thomson, 23 August 2013 - 04:43 AM.

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#9 EldritchFire

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:23 AM

In canon the X-wing has six torpedoes to the Y-wing's eight and the EotE Y-wing has its eight torpedoes, so while I don't have the AoR beta book that should be two torpedoes more and light ion cannons (plus a gunner and Fire Arc All in the S3) in the Y-wing's favor. The thing is, based on both the d6 stats (Rebel Alliance Sourcebook) and the Saga d20 stats (Starships of the Galaxy) the X-wing "should" essentially be a tweaked Z-95.  :P Here's what I propose!

 


Silhouette: 3

Speed: 4

Handling: +1

 

Defense: Fore 1, Port -, Starboard -, Aft 0

Armor: 3

HT Threshold: 11

SS Threshold: 8

 

Hull Type/Class: Starfighter/T-65 X-Wing.

Manufacturer: Incom.

Hyperdrive: Primary: Class 1, Backup: None.

Navicomputer: None--Astromech Droid socket.

Sensor Range: Close.

Ship's Complement: One pilot, one astromech droid.

Encumbrance Capacity: 10.

Passenger Capacity: 0.

Consumables: One week.

Cost/Rarity: 90,000 credits/5.

Customization Hard Points: 1.

Weapons: Wingtip Mounted Medium Laser Cannons (Fire Arc Forward; Damage 6; Critical 3; Range [Close]; Linked 3), Forward Mounted Proton Torpedo Launchers (Fire Arc Forward; Damage 8; Critical 2; Range [Short]; Breach 6, Blast 6, Guided 2, Limited Ammo 6, Linked 1, Slow-Firing 1).

As for the Y-wing, you're thinking of the separate "Y-wing Longprobe" variant (BTL-A4 LP) of the existing locked-forward turret version (BTL-A4) that's already in the EotE CRB, but in addition to the longer sensor range* it's also got a full navcomputer (not limited to the astromech droid's 10-jump memory) and a backup Class 6 hyperdrive, both where the gunner would have been on the two-seater (BTL-S3).

 

* In the d6 2nd Edition game's Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, the A4 LP has double the sensor range and focus area radius of the two-seater S3. Compared to the LP, the X-wing (T-65B) has only 5 less Search range and 1 less Focus radius, but 10 less Passive range and 20 less Scan range.

 

 

That's actually pretty close to the stats given! Speed is 5, Defense is 1/-/-/1, Armour 5 (the Big Debate) and HTT of 10., and cost of 120k. Other than that, you're spot on!

 

-EF


Edited by EldritchFire, 23 August 2013 - 07:24 AM.


#10 HappyDaze

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 02:36 PM

What Speed is the A-wing? TIE Interceptor?

 

I ask because both of those should be faster than the X-wing. I don't have a problem with the X-wing having 1 / - / - / 1 shields, but I'm not sure Speed 5 is appropriate and I'm damn sure that Armor 5 is too high.


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#11 Chortles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

The thing is that the FFG SWRPG system uses low numbers starting from 0 (all above but by differing amounts) instead of "high" numbers starting from 100 (above, equal or below) so the question is whether the top speeds in "in-universe units" were or will be deemed by the designers as high enough and different enough to correlate to differing numbers, and based on how the starfighter/patrol boat speeds in EotE/AoR roughly correlate to MGLTs (MGLT / 20 = FFG SWRPG speed) then it would at least be consistent (appropriate or not) for the X-wing to have Speed 5, but I'm going to guess that the TIE interceptor is stuck as an an "uprated" TIE/Ln (also Speed 5) because it's not faster enough than the X-wing, unlike the A-wing... "educated" guesses here subject to correction by EldritchFire:

 

TIE Interceptor: Speed 5, Hull Trauma Threshold 8, System Strain Threshold 6, guns are Linked 3 and presumably at least Handling +3

A-wing: Speed 6, Hull Trauma Threshold 7, System Strain Threshold 6, built-in Electronic Countermeasures Suite?

 

Also, I just want to be clear because I may have missed this, but how does a Defense of - differ from a Defense of 0?


Edited by Chortles, 23 August 2013 - 04:05 PM.

 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#12 HappyDaze

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

Also, I just want to be clear because I may have missed this, but how does a Defense of - differ from a Defense of 0?

Defense value of - indicates that a vessel of that size does not have that zone. For anythign below Sil 5, you'll see the port/starboard facings have -.


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#13 Sturn

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:28 PM

After looking at the Y-Wing stats and comparing them to what the X-Wing is, the only big problem I have is the Armor of 5 versus Y-Wing 3.

 

Is that a typo? I would have imagined the Y-Wing to have better armor, if anything. I would be ok with the X-Wing having an Armor of 3 (equal to Y-Wing and Z-95), but even a 4 would seem ridiculous, let alone a 5. Since I don't want to errata EotE and make Y-Wing Armor higher, I'm hoping AoR ends up with X-Wing Armor 3 in the final or it's something I'm going to have to pencil in.



#14 khaine1969

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:46 PM

The thing is that the FFG SWRPG system uses low numbers starting from 0 (all above but by differing amounts) instead of "high" numbers starting from 100 (above, equal or below) so the question is whether the top speeds in "in-universe units" were or will be deemed by the designers as high enough and different enough to correlate to differing numbers, and based on how the starfighter/patrol boat speeds in EotE/AoR roughly correlate to MGLTs (MGLT / 20 = FFG SWRPG speed) then it would at least be consistent (appropriate or not) for the X-wing to have Speed 5, but I'm going to guess that the TIE interceptor is stuck as an an "uprated" TIE/Ln (also Speed 5) because it's not faster enough than the X-wing, unlike the A-wing... "educated" guesses here subject to correction by EldritchFire:

 

TIE Interceptor: Speed 5, Hull Trauma Threshold 8, System Strain Threshold 6, guns are Linked 3 and presumably at least Handling +3

A-wing: Speed 6, Hull Trauma Threshold 7, System Strain Threshold 6, built-in Electronic Countermeasures Suite?

 

Also, I just want to be clear because I may have missed this, but how does a Defense of - differ from a Defense of 0?

Tie Int.speed 6, hull 6, strain 10

A-Wing speed 6 hull 6 strain 6 1 front shield.

 

T


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#15 Chortles

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:01 PM

That's actually pretty close to the stats given! Speed is 5, Defense is 1/-/-/1, Armour 5 (the Big Debate) and HTT of 10., and cost of 120k. Other than that, you're spot on!

 

-EF

Thanks, EldritchFire! For the most part I derived the stats using the ship conversion guidelines I found on Reddit for converting from Saga (while converting from d6 is done through Saga using this guide) and it's cool to see how well it held up! Compared to the Redditor's own conversion of the X-wing in this spreadsheet, which includes a B-wing and a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser, my X-wing conversion was almost identical other than the Redditor giving it two points of Defense versus my one, which I came upon since the X-wing had SR 15 in Saga while the Redditor's guideline was "Divide Saga SR by 15, minor adjustments", and maybe the "Restricted?" for which I chose Rarity in lieu of illegality.

 

The bit about Encumbrance is an admitted oddity but I just went with 10 because the d6 versions of the T-65B and BTL-S3 both matched (110 kg) so I chose to simply match the Y-wing's Encumbrance, while my choice of Rarity 5 was because of it being supposed to be Rebel-exclusive, or at least produced specifically for the Rebellion. As for the lack of a Restricted tag? The Imps wouldn't be going after you for illegal possession thereof, they'd be going after you because they thought you were a Rebel! :D

 

Should I post my A-wing and TIEs, since you were willing to comment on how close I was and where the AoR beta version differs (indirectly we both gave out the X-wing stats here :P) or is that the sort of thing for private messages?

Defense value of - indicates that a vessel of that size does not have that zone. For anythign below Sil 5, you'll see the port/starboard facings have -.

Thanks for clearing that up, it wasn't obviously indicated in the book so I wasn't sure; I imagine that this means that only Silhouette 5+ ships can as the defender/target ship pick from four different defense zones for an attack to target, while Silhouettes 3 and 4 have two zones, and the 0 is just to indicate that such a zone exists but has no points of Defense unless the shield operator moves a point or two over there?

After looking at the Y-Wing stats and comparing them to what the X-Wing is, the only big problem I have is the Armor of 5 versus Y-Wing 3.

 

Is that a typo? I would have imagined the Y-Wing to have better armor, if anything. I would be ok with the X-Wing having an Armor of 3 (equal to Y-Wing and Z-95), but even a 4 would seem ridiculous, let alone a 5. Since I don't want to errata EotE and make Y-Wing Armor higher, I'm hoping AoR ends up with X-Wing Armor 3 in the final or it's something I'm going to have to pencil in.

I'm also hoping that the X-wing Armor is 3 in the final or I'd be house-ruling it as I imagine you meant by "pencil in".

 

The reason it stands out so much is because it's so inordinately higher, and going by the Saga-to-FFG SWRPG conversion guideline I linked above, even the B-wing -- and as the sample conversions show, every starfighter except the TIE/Ln -- would be Armor 3. (This is admittedly a product of the conversion from Saga where every starfighter had DR 10 since DR determined was by size category.) To say nothing of how, as I remarked above, the X-wing is statistically a tweaked/upgraded Z-95...

 

EDIT: So the TIE Interceptor's got as much System Strain Threshold as a Y-wing whereas the X-wing, Cloakshape, Z-95 and TIE/Ln all have a System Strain Threshold of 8 and the A-wing has the lowest of them all, but both the TIE Interceptor and A-wing have only as much Hull as a TIE/Ln? Interesting, though I dare not inquire about the Handling...


Edited by Chortles, 23 August 2013 - 05:08 PM.

 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#16 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

After looking at the Y-Wing stats and comparing them to what the X-Wing is, the only big problem I have is the Armor of 5 versus Y-Wing 3.

 

Is that a typo? I would have imagined the Y-Wing to have better armor, if anything. I would be ok with the X-Wing having an Armor of 3 (equal to Y-Wing and Z-95), but even a 4 would seem ridiculous, let alone a 5. Since I don't want to errata EotE and make Y-Wing Armor higher, I'm hoping AoR ends up with X-Wing Armor 3 in the final or it's something I'm going to have to pencil in.

The Y-Wing (and B-Wing) both have a higher Hull Threshold than the X-Wing, helping to reflect them being "tougher" than an X-Wing.

 

Personally, I think the only change that really needs to be made to the X-Wing is to simply drop it's Armor down to 4.  It's described as being a very solid space superiority fighter, with an almost perfect balance of speed, firepower, maneuverability, and toughness.  There are ships that are better at one or two of those (A-Wing is faster & more maneuverable, B-Wing has tougher shields and more raw firepower), but there's a reason the X-Wing was the workhorse of the Alliance once they were able to start producing them in sufficient quantities.

 

From the movies, we see both X-Wings and Y-Wings take a couple of hits before blowing up, as well as both types of craft being destroyed in a single volley from an enemy TIE (a prime in-game example of the Linked quality being triggered on their laser cannons).  As noted, Y-Wing's got the higher Hull Threshold to reflect it's "toughness," so Armor 4 for the X-Wing makes it a bit more durable (a point less damage per hit) but not quite as tough (Hull Threshold of 10).


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#17 ErikB

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:48 AM


It's described as being a very solid space superiority fighter, with an almost perfect balance of speed, firepower, maneuverability, and toughness.

 

Finding that perfect balance is hard. I think people generally start with an X-Wing and build their game around that, so often you find that something else actually has a better balance because the rules place more importance on the areas where said type excels. 

 

(By and large, I'd prefer to see that the rules generally make an X-Wing the most desirable fighter to fly. Precisely what stats it would need for that to be the case is only going to become apparent through play.)


Edited by ErikB, 24 August 2013 - 09:50 AM.

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#18 Chortles

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:49 PM

It's interesting to me to see that AoR's point of reference may actually be the Y-wing considering that that's the "squadron starter" option, but I'm pleasantly happy with that.

The Y-Wing (and B-Wing) both have a higher Hull Threshold than the X-Wing, helping to reflect them being "tougher" than an X-Wing.

 

Personally, I think the only change that really needs to be made to the X-Wing is to simply drop it's Armor down to 4.  It's described as being a very solid space superiority fighter, with an almost perfect balance of speed, firepower, maneuverability, and toughness.  There are ships that are better at one or two of those (A-Wing is faster & more maneuverable, B-Wing has tougher shields and more raw firepower), but there's a reason the X-Wing was the workhorse of the Alliance once they were able to start producing them in sufficient quantities.

 

From the movies, we see both X-Wings and Y-Wings take a couple of hits before blowing up, as well as both types of craft being destroyed in a single volley from an enemy TIE (a prime in-game example of the Linked quality being triggered on their laser cannons).  As noted, Y-Wing's got the higher Hull Threshold to reflect it's "toughness," so Armor 4 for the X-Wing makes it a bit more durable (a point less damage per hit) but not quite as tough (Hull Threshold of 10).

 

The interesting thing here is that Armor aside, the X-wing in the beta book as reported by EldritchFire already has a clear case for itself ("depicted pilot" skill aside): the X-wing is similar to a Y-wing in toughness, which is a clear advantage for them both over the speed and maneuverability-optimized TIE/Ln, but as importantly, it can match the TIE/Ln for top speed... not the TIE Interceptor, but that's the A-wing's game anyway.

 

I admit that I'm pleasantly surprised to see that I was correct in guessing Handling +1, considering that conversion of D6 Maneuverability to Saga d20 Dexterity is clear-cut but either to Handling is "eyeballing".


Edited by Chortles, 24 August 2013 - 05:31 PM.

 

Well, according to George Lucas, the Empire is intended to be bad guys and the Sith to be objectively evil.

Fans proceeded to immediately disregard his bull and have fun with the Empire and make believable characters left and right, and come up with sensible rationalizations east, west, north and south.

 


#19 copperbell

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:43 AM

So say you have a squad of X-Wings heading in one direction and a squad of Z-95 Headhunters heading alongside a freighter convoy.

 

You're in charge of a Tie Fighter Squad, which of these two would you pursue if given the chance?



#20 TCBC Freak

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:49 AM

So say you have a squad of X-Wings heading in one direction and a squad of Z-95 Headhunters heading alongside a freighter convoy.

 

You're in charge of a Tie Fighter Squad, which of these two would you pursue if given the chance?

 

Lots of questions need to be answered before I can answer you with any real conviction.

 

What type of freighter (or freighters) are we talking about? Is my squad an attack squad (9+ fighters), a interception squad (3-6) or a patrol squad (6-9)? What's the space around us like? Is the x-wing squad standard 3 ship squad? What about the z-95, how many of them are there?

 

As it stands with a great lack of info I'm going to imagine I have an attack squad, so I'm going after the X-wings cause the freighters got to have some kind of weapons, and I'd rather deal with 3 x-wings than 3 z-95's and some freighters.


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