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Swift attack after the errata


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#1 Barbarossa

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:51 PM

How does it work now that it doesn't give extra attacks? It's kind of a bummer that it doesn't because it was nice as an assault marine to attack a few times(especially with two weapon wielder melee). So now what makes them special? Is it just a semi auto shot that counts extra hits per degree of success? What are your thoughts?


Edited by Barbarossa, 20 August 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#2 LordBlades

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:32 PM

Where exactly in the errata is this? I can't find it in errata 1.1 (only reference that comes when searching 'Swift Attack' in the document is in the context of Ritual Duel Fighter deed)



#3 Morangias

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:28 AM

How does it work now that it doesn't give extra attacks? It's kind of a bummer that it doesn't because it was nice as an assault marine to attack a few times(especially with two weapon wielder melee). So now what makes them special? Is it just a semi auto shot that counts extra hits per degree of success? What are your thoughts?

You mean like the Black Crusade/Only War version of swift/lightning attack?

 

Yes, this works just like semi/full auto respectively, counting extra hits per degrees of success. What this accomplishes is threefold:

1. It cuts down on action resolution by reducing the amount of rolls.

2. It lets experienced melee fighters land more hits.

3. It makes a successful attack harder to evade, as the target has to dodge multiple hits the same way he would dodge a semi/full auto burst.

 

I've switched to this rule right after BC came out, and never looked back.


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#4 herichimo

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:47 AM

 

How does it work now that it doesn't give extra attacks? It's kind of a bummer that it doesn't because it was nice as an assault marine to attack a few times(especially with two weapon wielder melee). So now what makes them special? Is it just a semi auto shot that counts extra hits per degree of success? What are your thoughts?

You mean like the Black Crusade/Only War version of swift/lightning attack?

 

Yes, this works just like semi/full auto respectively, counting extra hits per degrees of success. What this accomplishes is threefold:

1. It cuts down on action resolution by reducing the amount of rolls.

2. It lets experienced melee fighters land more hits.

3. It makes a successful attack harder to evade, as the target has to dodge multiple hits the same way he would dodge a semi/full auto burst.

 

I've switched to this rule right after BC came out, and never looked back.

 

 

It also allows a single field save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks in a whole round.
It allows a single dodge or parry save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks.

It gives something like a -10 to -30 (depending on talents) to hit, addative to two weapon fighting penalties.



#5 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:26 AM

To be honest, the 'requires less rolls' sold it for me. Combat should be dramatic and involving, not requiring umpty-ump different rolls to resolve each players attacks.

 

The other big advantage is that the Only War/Black Crusade Swift Attack isn't a full action. One thing which always struck me as a bit daft is that an assault marine gets less attacks on the charge.



#6 Barbarossa

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:42 AM

yea the less attacks on the charge got me. and the one parry/dodge negating the attack. Anyway I'm playing with it and it's working fine for my online game :). thanks for the clarification guys


Edited by Barbarossa, 21 August 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#7 Morangias

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:16 AM

 

 

How does it work now that it doesn't give extra attacks? It's kind of a bummer that it doesn't because it was nice as an assault marine to attack a few times(especially with two weapon wielder melee). So now what makes them special? Is it just a semi auto shot that counts extra hits per degree of success? What are your thoughts?

You mean like the Black Crusade/Only War version of swift/lightning attack?

 

Yes, this works just like semi/full auto respectively, counting extra hits per degrees of success. What this accomplishes is threefold:

1. It cuts down on action resolution by reducing the amount of rolls.

2. It lets experienced melee fighters land more hits.

3. It makes a successful attack harder to evade, as the target has to dodge multiple hits the same way he would dodge a semi/full auto burst.

 

I've switched to this rule right after BC came out, and never looked back.

 

 

It also allows a single field save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks in a whole round.

Not how it works. According to an official clarification I got, you roll your field save separately for each hit scored.

 

It allows a single dodge or parry save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks.

If the roll is good enough, sure, why not? It just takes some emphasis off the "gain extra Reaction" Talent and passes it onto the actual skill being used to evade. Which isn't bad, especially in Deathwatch where it's easy to get a high TN on a dodge/parry roll, but the game is extremely stingy when it comes to handing out extra Reactions.

 

 

It gives something like a -10 to -30 (depending on talents) to hit, addative to two weapon fighting penalties.

And that's a bad thing... why exactly?


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#8 herichimo

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:34 PM



It also allows a single field save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks in a whole round.

Not how it works. According to an official clarification I got, you roll your field save separately for each hit scored.

 

Except it is, your clarification contradicts other "official clarifications" which state a field will block all hits from a single attack roll. Please post your "official clarification", if it specifically mentions melee and this new swift attack talent many people can breath much easier.

 

On a related note, how would any of us know of your "official response" if you do not share it with us. Claiming a moral or authoratative high ground based upon information you alone possess, which you share only when you want to make yourself seem the expert, is not ethical or honorable.

 

 


It allows a single dodge or parry save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks.

If the roll is good enough, sure, why not? It just takes some emphasis off the "gain extra Reaction" Talent and passes it onto the actual skill being used to evade. Which isn't bad, especially in Deathwatch where it's easy to get a high TN on a dodge/parry roll, but the game is extremely stingy when it comes to handing out extra Reactions.

 

If one save won't block the whole attack it makes no sense a single parry would, but that's logic and if it fits your argument you'd take the stance logic doesn't matter in this, a game in a ficticious universe with brain magic. Higher skill beats lower skill, at least that's usually a valid assumption, a guy who can reasonably hit a target three times with precise attacks it took him years to master gets beaten by a single hip-sway to the left by a guy who practiced falling down?

 

 

It gives something like a -10 to -30 (depending on talents) to hit, addative to two weapon fighting penalties.

And that's a bad thing... why exactly?

 

See previous point. penalty to hit = harder to hit target + fewer hits = easier for target to dodge/parry all the hits. Multiple attack talents like swift and lightning should (and did) represent increasing skill but this way its a bit more of a handicap, allowing a character trained to dodge to completely negate those characters with greater hand to hand skills. .... exactly.

 

Feel free to use it though, not going to stop anyone, nor will I strongly suggest they not use it. Just presenting the facts of the matter.


Edited by herichimo, 22 August 2013 - 10:41 PM.


#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:22 AM

Swift Attack (old version) increases your chance of hitting, the new one lowers it.

 

It also makes swift attack much less effective against hordes; in fact; it is only marginally better than a plain all-out attack, making the guy who is supposed to be kick-ass in this respect only marginally better than everybody else.

 

Then again, it seems to give Furious Assault more of a function.

 

I've been using the BC/OW rules for a while now and I'm really still not sure if it was a good idea.



#10 Morangias

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:41 AM

 



It also allows a single field save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks in a whole round.

Not how it works. According to an official clarification I got, you roll your field save separately for each hit scored.

 

Except it is, your clarification contradicts other "official clarifications" which state a field will block all hits from a single attack roll. Please post your "official clarification", if it specifically mentions melee and this new swift attack talent many people can breath much easier.

There you go. It's actually for Deathwatch proper, from Andrew Fischer:

 

The Force Field triggers off of each independently resolved hit received by a character. So, in the case of Full Auto Burst for example, a Battle-Brother scores two degrees of success for a total of three hits, hitting his adversary in the Leg, Leg, and Body (according to the Multiple Hits table). This adversary has a Force Field, so each of these three hits will get a separate roll from the Force Field to see if it is cancelled. If the weapon has the Storm quality, it simply does double the hits, so in this example the Battle-Brother will instead hit his adversary six times, hitting him in the Leg, Leg, Body, Arm, Head, and Body. The adversary will then get six separate rolls on his Force Field, one for each separate hit.

 

It doesn't actually address the new swift/lightning attack, but seeing it's exactly the same as semi/full auto, I see no way how it could interact differently.

 

On a related note, how would any of us know of your "official response" if you do not share it with us. Claiming a moral or authoratative high ground based upon information you alone possess, which you share only when you want to make yourself seem the expert, is not ethical or honorable.

That's rather hostile, isn't it? You're reading a lot of things that I didn't write into my post.

 

 

 

 

If the roll is good enough, sure, why not? It just takes some emphasis off the "gain extra Reaction" Talent and passes it onto the actual skill being used to evade. Which isn't bad, especially in Deathwatch where it's easy to get a high TN on a dodge/parry roll, but the game is extremely stingy when it comes to handing out extra Reactions.It allows a single dodge or parry save to block ALL of a melee combatants attacks.

 

 

 

 

If one save won't block the whole attack it makes no sense a single parry would, but that's logic and if it fits your argument you'd take the stance logic doesn't matter in this, a game in a ficticious universe with brain magic. Higher skill beats lower skill, at least that's usually a valid assumption, a guy who can reasonably hit a target three times with precise attacks it took him years to master gets beaten by a single hip-sway to the left by a guy who practiced falling down?

Evading those extra hits works exactly like evading auto bursts, as in: one DoS on the dodge/parry roll negates one hit. It is quite clearly a matter of skill versus skill, with a bit of luck thrown in. From the standpoint of rules informing the setting, having a high Dodge/Parry TN and having Talents that allow for extra Reactions are two distinct but intertwined facets of being good at defensive combat.

 

 


 

It gives something like a -10 to -30 (depending on talents) to hit, addative to two weapon fighting penalties.

And that's a bad thing... why exactly?

 

See previous point. penalty to hit = harder to hit target + fewer hits = easier for target to dodge/parry all the hits. Multiple attack talents like swift and lightning should (and did) represent increasing skill but this way its a bit more of a handicap, allowing a character trained to dodge to completely negate those characters with greater hand to hand skills. .... exactly.

 

Feel free to use it though, not going to stop anyone, nor will I strongly suggest they not use it. Just presenting the facts of the matter.

First, did you ever do a math on that? I did. Under the new rules, Swift Attack/Semi Auto break even with single attack/shot at about 30 attack characteristic (the latter offering a slightly better chance to hit at all, the former having a chance to score more than one hit, the average number of hits scored from the attack is about the same). Lightning Attack/Full Auto returns to being strictly superior from about 40 attack characteristic and up - for DW Marines, that's about an average starting value before eventual Chapter bonuses are included. So yeah, your average starting Battle Brother is better off using Swift/Lightning Attack if he can get it.

 

Second, either of these multiple attack actions is a Half Action now, and you won't be needing the other one to move every single turn. This leaves you with several tasty options, including Aim (to negate the penalties incurred by the action and further skew the probability in the favor of multiple attacks) and Feint (to stop that annoying evasion thing in it's tracks and go to town with multiple unavoidable hits).

 

Your "facts of the matter" are factually incorrect.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.





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