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madam Flush and alternate Baltar....is this as broken as it looks


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#41 napoleonWilson

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:31 PM

Ah...ok to quit...this is a fundamental play style difference.

 

My game group feels that if you are human ...you are HUMAN.  "pulling the reins" with your play and gaming the system in order to see if you get the cylon card is tantamount to cheating.  I guess that you can play that way, but if we found somebody was playing as a cylon before they got a cylon card we would just lock em up and forget em...or more probably just not invite that person back to play.  If you are human you play to the best of your abilities to help the humans until something changes.  Otherwise just cook the loyalty deck and deal yourself a cylon card if you want it that bad.

 

I feel playing with tactics like that are seriously against the spirit of the game.  I don't think we would be very good in the same group. 

 

Sorry,..

napoleon



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Posted 14 September 2013 - 07:21 AM

I did not say play like a cylon while you're human. 

Just to play for yourself until you know. You have more chance to stay a human than to become a cylon, so you should definitely help the humans, but you shouldn't help them too much if you can wait to give that same help until after the sleeper phase. 

 

What I mean by this:

- Keep your once per game until you know what team to use it for. (especially for characters like boomer, starbucks, helo, anders, chief, Dee, Cain, ... )

- Try to have others contribute to the skill checks right before the sleeper phase, instead of contributing all your cards yourself.



#43 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:37 AM

But then why bother holding  back at all. 

 

Why not sabotage votes to make sure the humans are not doing too well?  Refuse to give out xo's cause the humans MIGHT BE your enemy? Leave 1's on top of the destination deck so it takes the humans a bit longer to get to their goal? Don't use any quorum cards to get back morale or food.   I mean...just in CASE....

Sorry, but sabotage is sabotage.  If you CAN do something and you don't I think  you are throwing the game. 

I know it sucks to get the cylon card at the half and have the humans be REALLY close to home but, dems da breaks man.  You have to take the hand that you have been dealt and not play to what you wish.  I have played plenty of games where the cylons don't get dealt out till the half and they still win. It's harder but, the game is designed to be REALLY hard for the humans and they need to have everyone on board for as long as they can.  The cylons get enough of an advantage from the game itself.

  I don't like the  argument that you are, "playing for yourself"  and I think it is flawed.  The game is a team game and you should be playing for your team that you are on. 

It is no different than a jockey holding his horse back, a boxer taking a dive in the fifth, or the Korean Olympic Ping-Pong team intentionally throwing their games so they could get more favorable standings in the playoffs.  It's legal and the rules don't forbid it,...but wow is it bad sportsmanship. 

 

Napoleon



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Posted 14 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

You are overreacting. 

 

Take this example: 

Distance = 3, jump prep has advanced 2 spaces this cycle. Space is calm, it's one of those moments in the game where you don't have to put out fires but can build up resources for future challenges. The admiral has 1 nuke left. 

 

It's my turn, and I receive the card "build nuke". 

 

Let's assume that the best human play would be to build the nuke. I would not do it. I would do something else good for the humans, or would draw cards in the press room, or whatever. 

 

By my next turn, I would know my second loyalty card and would still hold the "build nuke", so I could play it then. I didn't harm the humans by my play. I didn't sabotage anything. 

I just made sure that if I turn cylon, I would still hold a 6 value blue card to sabotage an important skill check, and I didn't give the humans an extra nuke token. If I stay human, I will still build the nuke later and no real harm would be done. 

What is unsportsmanlike about that play?

 

I don't cheat, I don't go in against the spirit of BSG. (What Baltar and Zarek did in the show ... even apollo choosing for politics was a selfish choice when the fleet needed the best pilots in the cockpits.)

I just try to win however the game turns out, and no, I will not help the cylons in the hope of becoming one. I just don't invest all my trump cards before the sleeper phase if they can just as well be kept until after the sleeper phase without a real impact on the human chances to win. 



#45 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:37 PM

You are equivocating with an example that is so insignificant that it is pretty much a straw argument.  The response you made was to a clearly human benefit.  Jumping 2-3 times with Cain and Baltar with VERY little danger to the humans.  If you were either Cain or Balter and human, by not using that amazing ability(especially if the other players are saying to do it) I say you are throwing the game. An extra nuke isn't that big a deal, usually best thrown into the off vote.  An argument for keeping it back could be reasonably made for being a human as well as a cylon.  There is no comparison between the two plays 

 

 

I didn't say you are cheating.  Tantamount means VIRTUALLY the same as, however, I still say it is terribly bad sportsmanship and certainly against the spirit of the game to play in the hopes of the odd chance you are a cylon.    I also think using actions of characters in the show is not an argument either.  Chief, Anders, Torri and whoever else the show producers hit on the dart-board to see who would be a cylon are not automatically cylons because they were on the show. 

 

We are DEFINATLY not going to see eye to eye on this one but, I think people know where we stand.

 

Napoleon.



#46 subochre

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 04:44 PM

Man, it's pretty weird that the rulebook's strategy tips (p. 29) encourage players to violate the spirit of the game



#47 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:15 PM

I guess...



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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:21 PM

Man, it's pretty weird that the rulebook's strategy tips (p. 29) encourage players to violate the spirit of the game

Thank you for this reminder:

From the rulebook (p29)

 

Preparing for the Sleeper Agent Phase

It is important for human players to keep in mind that even
if they do not start as a Cylon, that may change during the Sleeper Agent phase. At the start of the game, it may be a good strategy for the humans to avoid doing too well, because one of them may become a Cylon player during the Sleeper Agent phase. Performing exceptionally well as a human

may make winning the game more difficult for a player who switches over to the Cylon side. 

 

So the rulebook tells me to play like that. It can't be against the spirit of the game then, can it?

 

And you keep saying I hope to become a cylon. I never hope to become one. I prefer the games where I am human all game. 

And I don't see how trying to win the game is bad sportsmanship. 

 

Doing 3 blind jumps in a few game turns using newBaltar and Cain, is doing way too good for the humans. I prefer to bring the game to the sleeper phase in a way that I can still win the game, however my second loyalty card turns out. I don't play in the hopes of becoming a cylon, I play in the hopes of winning, whatever my loyalty is. 



#49 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:24 PM

I guess...

 

I guess this would be ok too," Aww...I am going to loose....meh...I will just throw the game so we can go play another one." That's not the spirit of the game either but, if your fellow players said that I am willing to bet Sub that you are not the type of player that would be happy about that.

I think what that tip meant was don't worry about events of the show or if you are doing something that a character would or would not do in the show.  I don't think it meant to intentionally throw the game. 

 

napoleon



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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:33 PM

A game is never lost until it's really over, so indeed I wouldn't like someone throwing the game. 

 

But there is a difference between throwing a game and keeping your options open because you don't know yet what team you will end up on. 

 

Anyway, we don't need to agree. 

What's important is that my play group doesn't mind me playing like that, because they all do it, and we have fun with those games and humans still have like 40-45% victory chance. And you don't have people in your play group that play like I do, and I suppose your games are fun too. 



#51 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:38 PM

Thankfully that's just a tip and not a rule.  To be forced to play like the way you are arguing for would make the game stupid and pointless.  Just shuffle up the loyalty, cards deal em face up and whoever gets the cylon cards wins cause everybody is gonna playing the same way; trying to sabotage themselves.  It is TOTALLY playing as a cylon before you get the cylon card. 

If you wanna play like that, that's up to you.  I prefer to play it straight and if I win as a cylon I won for real, not cause everybody else was playing to be a cylon and I got lucky enough to get the card. 

I find it hard to believe they would include such a ridiculous tip in their rule book.  Hopefully that knucklehead is off the staff. 

 

napoleon



#52 subochre

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 07:54 PM

That's such a ridiculous straw man.  All Quit's saying is that you should play so as to increase your individual chances of winning.  You're the one who says that the "sportsmanlike" way to play is to do your absolute best for a team that you might not actually be a member of.  The one who's really sabotaging her team is sleeper agent Cain who jumps the fleet as early as she can; "oh why wait to find out what team I'm on?...I'll just use up all my abilities now to help the humans as much as possibly can; after all, I'm not a cylon yet."  That is throwing the game.

 

But even if you think that the rulebook is wrong, that some maverick writer somehow tricked the designers by sneaking in advice that was contrary to the spirit of the game (as understood by them, you, and nobody else I've ever heard of) without anyone noticing, why did the designers go on to further develop this very tension between individual and team interests in the Ionian Nebula endgame?  Hell, why did they even include the sleeper agent phase at all?  On your way of telling things, the only purpose of the sleeper agent phase is to arbitrarily ruin a cylon's chances half the time.



#53 napoleonWilson

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:54 PM

It is not based on an individual winning.. You win or loose with the team. If you don't play for your team you are sabotaging it.

 

I don't know too much about the Ionian nebula part.  The sleeper agent is for adding some tension, not to give an excuse to throw the game to the side you want to win.  Playing like that leads to near cylon run aways because EVERYBODY is going to be playing this selfish silly way.  We could play right now like that....just random 1-7....3 and 5 is are the cylons...if you get a 3 or 5 you win.  otherwise you are human and have been sabotaged to loose.

 

However, sub...I love your description... "maverick writer somehow tricked the designers by sneaking in advice that was contrary to the spirit of the game". I think maybe that is Exactly what happened with that kind of tip being thrown in.   Incentivizing intentionally loosing ( which is what you did if you end up human at the sleeper phase) is absurd.

 

Like I said,..if you are good to play that way okay.  Just shuffle up and deal.

 

napoleon

 



#54 subochre

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

 Playing like that leads to near cylon run aways because EVERYBODY is going to be playing this selfish silly way. 

 

 

Well, there's a very easy way to test whether what you're saying has any truth at all to it.  Someone should play our way and then report back as to whether the cylons dominated.

...Fortunately I took the liberty of playing a few dozen games with a group that uses that approach.  :lol:  The humans have always done just fine.

 

So, now that we've put that concern to rest, I still don't understand why "winning or losing with your team" implies that sleeper agent cylons should spend the first four distance trying to make the other team win.  Seems to me that if you want to win with your team, then you should help your actual team, not the team that you spent the first half of the game mistakenly assuming you'd be on.



#55 Vonpenguin

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:49 PM

Napoleon, no one is saying to intentionally fail skill checks, for the admiral to short jump the fleet, or anything else that would actually hurt the humans. What most people mean by "Don't play pure human" is to reserve your OPG, to keep your title, and to conserve and if possible buff your hand. None of these plays are sub optimal or anti-human. If anything they help humanity since once you have the full complement of active cylons running around is when you'll probably need the big guns anyway.

 

Strengthening your powerbase during the first half of the game is important. Either it will let you sabotage if you become a cylon, or counter the cylons once they are active and becoming more aggressive as the timer ticks down.


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#56 JasX

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

Strengthening your powerbase during the first half of the game is important. Either it will let you sabotage if you become a cylon, or counter the cylons once they are active and becoming more aggressive as the timer ticks down.


also the more tricks you have up your sleeve the fewer tricks

1-Are in other humans hands who may turn cylon
2-are secret from the other players and may cause cylons to mis-target their attacks (eg they may try and hammer morale if it is looking a *little* low whilst you still have a hand full of speeches, and major victories and actually have few worries in that area)

Edited by JasX, 14 September 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#57 napoleonWilson

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:01 AM

Wow...ok....we got a full game here...lets shuffle up and deal...



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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:13 AM

Wow...ok....we got a full game here...lets shuffle up and deal...

Great idea, but let's hope both YAAC cards are in the sleeper deck. 



#59 napoleonWilson

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 10:42 AM

Bah...don't need it.  We are just all playing as cylons so don't need a sleeper phase. We can streamline it and get

more games in,..woohoo.



#60 BrandonCarpenter

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:41 PM

Funny enough, I asked this sort of question almost a year ago:

http://community.fan...-sleeper-phase/

 

 

There's a reason why I only play vanilla BSG game, well there's two, but one main one. You guys have touched on it, but I don't think anyone has outright said it. 

 

It's all about the metagame of your group and how well your group handles Cylons.

 

My group, much to my dismay, doesn't play that often so we haven't worked out all our bluffing tricks and tells (I only have 4 games under my belt, to be honest). I opt to not include any other expansion yet because right now humans have a 50% win percentage and adding even one part of an expansion would tip the game too far in either direction. My group is also having fun. I actually have to tone down how I play because I've poured through these boards and BBG's boards and I'm way too optimized for my group; the rest of my group can't keep up and I end up trouncing the opposition. Once we work out our kinks and whatnot, I'll consider adding 1-2 parts of the expansions to bring in something new.

 

From what I infer from your posts, Napoleon's group has to play humans to the hilt because his group's Cylons would win every time otherwise. Quit's group has to keep things held back a little or else the humans will have too far a lead after the sleeper phase. Doesn't mean one group is better than the other - both group probably have roughly equal win/loss ratios - just that you're tailoring the game to your group's style of play.

 

The other reason why I hold back on the expansions is some of my players haven't finished watching the series.


Edited by BrandonCarpenter, 15 September 2013 - 12:42 PM.

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