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madam Flush and alternate Baltar....is this as broken as it looks


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#1 napoleonWilson

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:26 PM

So,...Baltar runs around and steals miracle tokens.  Then he runs over to Cain and feeds her

the tokens.  Is that as crazy broken as it sounds or have I missed something.  Please tell me I missed something.  Earth needs to be like 14 or more to make it a challenge.   who cares about Demetrius or missions...just launch scout and xo's and conga line home. 

is that really and option?

 



#2 Vonpenguin

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:31 PM

Well Cain's ability only works up until distance 6, you have to destroy civvies, which isn't ussually a big deal in exchange for a free jump but if you're doing it repeatedly it might cause problems. Add to that the massive amount of trust you'd have to have in both Baltar and Cain, as well as whoever is the main scouter. On top of that you don't actually have the fuel to make it ten without geting the right crisis, skill cards, or missions to add some fuel or distance. There's a grand total of what? 2 or 3 destinations that are better than one for one on fuel? I mean I'm sure someone's gonna try it but I don't think it'll be a winner on it's own. good help most likely but not an autowin.

 

Also, why is Cain Madam Flush? I know Roslin is Madam Airlock but never heard Cain reffered to by that.



#3 napoleonWilson

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:06 PM

I started this thread cause we just tried it over the weekend.  With this combo in a 6 player game the humans jumped 6 in a total of 4 turns...(not full rounds) TURNS...all for the low low price of 5 fuel (which you would loose in any case since you lose fuel when you jump anyway) and 3 pop and 1 moral.  Wooopitydooo.  The cylons were CRUSHED.  simply wasn't any time to do anything.  yeah,...your fuel argument is not convincing since whether the humans trudge down the jump track and jump or Cain pops the blind jump...the humans are going to loose the fuel regardless.  As far as the 6 distance..yeah..thats true and as soon as we hit 6 we killed her and grabbed a real character.  But,...come on  4-6 distance for that kind of cost before your fifth player has even gone....woosh.

 

As far as Cain being called Madam Flush it's because of her every turn ability that allows execution if passing a brig vote.  So she "flushes" characters out her airlock. 

 

napoleon.



#4 Vonpenguin

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:44 PM

My fuel argument does hold. 5 for 6 is rare, it's ussually 6 for 6, you'd have no margin for error, if you got hit with any fuel lose or even didn't have a chance to bring it back up before your next jump and got a costly destination choice you'd have been drifting. I can see the benifits but it's such a massive gamble. The level of trust needed between baltar, cain, and the presumably at least one other person that helped with it is quite large.

 

You'll win some from this, probably more than you lose, but you'll still end up losing sometimes and those loses will not be pretty. All it takes is one of the random ships being the tilium refinery and a cylon with a damge galactica reveal.



#5 napoleonWilson

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:34 AM

Meh...I still don't think your argument works.  The fuel is going to be lost no matter what.  The fuel loss is going to happen whether you move down the jump track or if you use Cains ability.

She gets tons of purples so when she is xo'd she launches scout before she jumps fleet.  It is the same exact chance of distance to fuel ratio.  And so what if you only get 5 out of 2 jumps...can jump and go up to 8! Holy moly....And what about the purple card search for fuel, the yellow that reduces stat loss by one for as movement, the quaram card, Zareks ability, there are tons of ways to mitigate loss.  As far as the trust issue, it's no different than trusting anybody else.  In fact if the group agrees that this is the only way to fly, it would be easy to

root out the cylon cause if they don't jump the fleet or don't give the xo or if there is a one distance more than once...you know who the cylon is.  At this point probably if the cylon turns out to be either baltar or Cain they would just reveal to make sure the humans can't use this tactic.

I am willing to bet the humans will win WAY more than they loose.  Yeah, there will be those unfortunate unlucky pulls that will get ya but, come on.  If that is really a legitimate tactic I don't think they play tested this expansion enough.

 

Napoleon



#6 subochre

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

Meh...I still don't think your argument works.  The fuel is going to be lost no matter what.  The fuel loss is going to happen whether you move down the jump track or if you use Cains ability.

 

Isn't that the whole point of the Demetrius and its distance-gaining missions, that traveling ten distance solely by jumping (blind or otherwise) is really hard?  Though if you're just going to Kobol, that's another matter entirely.

As for the trust issue, I think the main concern is not that someone would jump poorly or refuse to participate, but that they would, for example, blow all of the team's miracle tokens out the airlock, which is really not a bad soft reveal.

 

I mean, I'll grant that it's potentially a strong strategy.  I'd be surprised if it was broken, but if it is, I'll just regard it as a special case of Cain's pre-existing brokenness, and one more reason not to play her (or, at the very least, not with New Baltar)



#7 Mephisto666

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:21 PM

"Keep XOing me and let me take your tokens...  yea yea... I am TOTALLY human...  yea yea..."



#8 Mephisto666

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:21 PM

Also, I have not heard these character nicknames, are there others (Madam Flush you out the airlock I am guessing?)



#9 Skowza

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

He seems kinda broken when combo'ed with a lot of people. A pro-Cylon D'Anna could team up with an unrevealed Baltar to go nuts on the SC cards, but I agree that the combo with Cain could be pretty OP. I guess if its a problem our Group will just have to house-rule it somehow.

#10 napoleonWilson

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:29 PM

Admittedly we have not played alot but, the games we did play we didnt even touch the demetrius.  We jumped the old fashioned way and did just fine. (3 games now) In fact the demetrius seems more like a waste of time than anything else.

As far as the trust thing and the ,..."yeah im human trust me keep xoing me" thing,...that can happen anytime. Yeah...those missions on the demetrious stank...trust me thats why i put em on the bottom, yeah trust me there is nothing on the back of those civvy ships, yeah trust me im still looking for the brutal force.  The baltar taking tokens is actually less of a threat because the idea would be Baltar doesnt build up tons he just grabs one and runs it over to Cain.  At that point there isnt much else he can do. The second he grabs a token and doesnt give it to Flush he gets a trip to jail.  He would probably just run over and steel Flush's token, that would be about the best he could do as a reveal barring circumstances.

 

Madam Flush is kinda a double entendre...aside from her jump ability we feel that she (along with almost all the military people) really kinda suck. So, before Daybreak our strat was to let her jump the fleet turn one and then either cally her or vote her out the airlock so the player could grab a political or pilot or something that actually had value.

Generally speaking we do not believe killing cylons is a good idea. it is best to let them rot in jail and do nothing except reveal which takes up one of their actions.  Killing them only really helps them since it saves them the useless reveal action. 

 

We have a few other nicknames,...

Roslin is "one lump"

Anders is "Flanders"

Tigh is "cyclops"

Adama is "Adummy"

 

I cant remember any others.

 

I do kinda like the one solution above though. Can't play Cain and alternate Baltar in same game.  Need to play some more

but, so far it is pretty ridiculous.

 

Thanks for responses though...

helps...

napoleon



#11 Skowza

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:00 PM

...almost all the military people really kinda suck.

What?
Helo is solid, his disadvantage only affects you for one round, his OPT is solid and his OPG is good, plus he can pilot if you just need another body out there.
Adamas weakness rarely affects the game, Inspirational Leader is good and being able to grab an entire skill check worth of cards is amazing, especially on a Crisis like Standoff with Pegasus.
Gaeta can break out the brig while grabbing the Admiral title at the same time, FTL Operator is a bit weak but his disadvantage is hardly crippling.

If anything I would argue that the Support characters suck
Cally has a hard time contributing to skill checks and has a relatively useless OPG if the Cylons are revealed, only good for killing off characters that you don't need anymore or for getting more of a skill check color when all the players making red cards suddenly became Cylons.
Chief is pretty mediocre all around.
Not sure about Cottle yet, his OPT looks good but his OPG is kinda garbage and he can't use Engineering cards so you'll need another character who draws them if you expect to repair things, leaving less guys that get XOs, less pilots, etc.
Dee is a useless waste of a character, the "Anders" of the Support guys.

Edited by Skowza, 26 August 2013 - 03:01 PM.


#12 napoleonWilson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

LOL...

 

Well...clearly we have some difference of opinion. 

Helo is probably the only reason I said "pretty much all the military people suck".  However, the military people with the exception of helo and maybe I guess , (if I have to) Geata(though I am not impressed with his actual performance in game) I think the military just stink.  Green purple just is not a strong pull.  Green is good, purple is weak.  Most pilots get it for the need.  I would rather have an extra political person to actually pass the most votes of Yellow Green.

Frankly, I would rather have an extra support person too.  Dee and cottle I think are to weak but, I would so take one over a Cain that has popped her opg., You are HIGH as kite about Chief. He is one of the most powerful characters.  That guy can single handedly keep the ship running.  His colours are awesome and his disadvantage is insignificant.  His opg is amazing.  Cally is probably the least useful support.  her opg is only good for the Cain maneuver.  Let cain us her opg turn one and then have cally run over and kill her to grab somebody useful. But I would still take any one of them over a military (Helo excepted).

 

I do think it is funny though that everybody has some difference of opinions on some characters.  We debate a bit over who is good and bad , "roslin is great," " you're insane, she sucks" but, EVERYBODY Knows the donuts on a doorknob like Anders.  Wow...FFG really, REALLY hated his character. Made him totally useless.  They really need to Errata him to make his every turn card thing a move action or something and his opg affect ANY die roll EVER.  Then maybe somebody would at least try him. 

napoleon



#13 Vonpenguin

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:26 PM

Purple is weak? It's one of the most common colors and has generally more applicable card abilities than yellow. Now Red, that's weak. Blue is only good with at least two expansions. 

 

Honestly I think every character has good points, yes even Anders, on the same note every character has times when they are utterly useless.

 

Adama is a strong choice, Tigh is good in paranioa heavy games, Helo is solid, Cain... honestly her OPG and the optional fifth card are the only things I like about her, her standard ability is pretty sub-par, Geatea's draw is awesome if nothing else, haven't seen Hoshi or new Zareek in action yet but they seem decent.



#14 napoleonWilson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:19 PM

Purple blows.  Almost every vote is Yellow green. Purple occasionally. Red...well piloting is piloting...what are ya gonna do. Blue...tell me a repair is useless when you want sweet vipers or to use the hanger deck or command or ftl and its in flames...(btw...who can fix em AND use em right after.....The Chief guy.) 

Adama is weak sauce

Tigh the drunken Cyclops sailor is even worse.

Cain is useless after the opg.

Helo,...yea...he is solid. Especially if he is player 1. 

we played hoshi the other night...he was not as impressive as we hoped, but the new zarek is sweet....especially with the mutiny cards.He could actually be worthwhile having in a game.  Plus he gets politics. 

 

I can't count how many times we have had vote, after vote after vote where the where the military person says..."cant help,..i don't get yellow" or "I can help alittle,...I get two green...course I wont have an xo on my turn".   (no,...not because they were cylons.)

Yellow has the most powerful card in the game...the pass the vote card, investigative commitees, and the resource reduction for movement.

Purple has.....launch scout...wooo.....hooo(except maybe now with the new helo) +2 to die rolls....yawn...the scout for fuel card admittedly is VERY important...but your pilots get purple,...a lot of the engineers get purple.  it really is a supplemental colour...its not super important.

 

however, with the advent of new baltar....all of a sudden....Cain becomes ALOT more useful...at least until 6 distance.  To speed through to six distance in alittle over 1 full round,...I could be convinced to tolerate her being left alive a TAD longer :)

 

napoleon



#15 subochre

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 03:38 AM

Purple blows.  Almost every vote is Yellow green. Purple occasionally.

 

Like you say, there's plenty of room to disagree about characters (Chief sucks), but this one is totally quantifiable and really easy to settle; in fact, people have run all sorts of analyses of the color distribution of crisis cards (which is good, because I'm lazy :P)

 

Unfortunately the only one I could find was just of the base set (I think I read somewhere that the first two expansions even up the numbers a bit, making the top three colors closer and either red or blue a bit better), but from those results purple is the most important for skill checks by a considerable margin. 

 

Granted, yellow/green seems to be the single most common combination, but all that means is that green can be substituted for yellow.  If your military leaders "can't help because they don't have yellow," and they're not cylons (not to mention very poor liars), then you must be on one of the two crises in the whole deck that has yellow but not green, in which case they can still play purple.  edit: also, yellow/green crises tend to be some of the easiest to pass.

 

(I do agree that yellow has really good effects.  With green everything that isn't an XO is pretty much skill check fodder, but CP and IC are both pretty good, and yeah, that one yellow card is the best skill 6 (but again, I think you're undervaluing purple).)


Edited by subochre, 27 August 2013 - 03:42 AM.


#16 napoleonWilson

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:14 PM

Running stats doesn't tell ya, "how it goes down in the streets", so to speak :)

 

Human players have no reason to lie.  If they keep saying they can't help in votes or can help alittle but, would have to give up

the xo to help there is a problem.  Purple cards themselves stink.  The primary card is launch scout.  Usually there is something else that has to get done, (especially with the mutiny cards, or agenda loyalty cards now) that the launch scout is only played if you have really nothing else to do.

. Ughh...Just thinking about purple makes me annoyed, I can't tell you how many times when I

am stuck drawing purple I get stuck with a launch scout and 3 "trust instincts".  Great, I can really help the vote with those

bad boys.  Add two more from the destiny.  There is only one other card other than the scout for fuel that is good and I forgot about and that's the crit situation.  That one can be REALLY handy. But there are only like 2 or 3 of them out of the whole deck and the rest is SO weak.  Even the green zero skill card is actually useful.  The purple is discard fodder.

I would SO much rather have a yellow green character who helps with nearly all votes, instead of a green/purple character who might be able to vote on a lot of votes. Even if you argue,...well you will get tons of Xo's which are low value for votes...I would rather have tons of low green xo's to throw into almost all votes than a bunch of low purple launch scouts that can throw into a lot of votes. You can hold back one xo and have something useful on your turn.  The launch scouts...well...they are safe cards to discard I suppose if you have to or want to move to another ship. 

 

I think I have purple pegged just right.  However, my primary point was, that in addition to most military characters meh skill set which includes too much purple, the military characters don't bring much to the table.  Helo (and Gaeta to a lesser extent) is the only military that consistently has useful abilities.  The others either focus too much on cylons which at a certain point is useless or the advantage vs. disadvantage is weighted WAY to heavily in the negative. 

Frankly, I (up till daybreak) felt the pro-move was to kill the military off and let them grab another political to help with nearly all not just a lot.  Like Zarek,...you can even get the "precious" purple that way. 

 

it's cool to hear other opinions though. 

napoleon.



#17 JasX

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

Well just to wade in uninvited purple did get a healthy buffs in daybreak IMO.

-> reload someone's OPG with 'second chance'
-> new helo and his double scouting

#18 Vonpenguin

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

It's clear we aren't going to agree but just try and slightly dull the edge of "Yellow is god"... Red Tape. The only time I ever willingly played it into a check was when I was a clyon and I seem to draw it way more often than is feasible.



#19 napoleonWilson

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

Yes....the Red Tape is a severe blow to the godliness of Yellow :)  I have used it on votes to get rid of cylon throw in's on votes...but that in NO WAY redeems it.  Especially, as I recall, I think I ousted a good card too.  I still argue if you were matching em up, Trust instincts and Red Tape, the tape is better...but then you are arguing which turd smells nicer. 

 

Of course you are invited to weigh in, and yes,...daybreak did give some help to purple. New Helo is, (in my opinion) amazing.  He actually makes launch scout  useful.  An action to look at one crisis is a waste....two however.  But he is only one man, and the second chance doesn't do much if everyone still has their miracle token.  I have had it sit in my hand for a couple rounds waiting for someone to pop and opg so I could give them one back.  Just didn't happen.  Finally just threw it into a vote.  but yes...it did get some help....which it DESPERATLY needed.

 

Napoleon



#20 JasX

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:28 PM

It's clear we aren't going to agree but just try and slightly dull the edge of "Yellow is god"... Red Tape. The only time I ever willingly played it into a check was when I was a clyon and I seem to draw it way more often than is feasible.


Oh I don't know... I had an unrevealed cylon chief overtly spike an investigated check with establish network -> 5-scientific research -> 5-scientific research.... He looked smug for about 2.3 seconds before I slammed my red tape on top.

I've also used it when I'm near looking a check ith 3s and 4s against recently revealed cylons... Very situational but occasionally useful




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