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Should a rapier be able to block a heavier weapon?


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#1 Emirikol

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:47 AM

Should a rapier be able to PARRY a heavier weapon (e.g. an ogre's flail) ?  

 

How about a main gauche?  Should it be able to be used to PARRY a great weapon?

 

Opinions?

 

jh


Edited by Emirikol, 17 August 2013 - 09:43 AM.


#2 Yepesnopes

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:42 AM

Probably not. Equally, there are many more things that would not hold in a real midle age world. Yet, this is a game and you, as the GM (or you and your players), shall decide wich level of "realism" want to give to the game.

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#3 Emirikol

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 01:05 PM

The reason I ask is it may be a way to balance the rapier.



#4 Yepesnopes

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 02:22 PM

I knew, I knew  ;)

Any of us who has GM enough to this game had similar concerns.

 

I can not remember what I ended up doing for my games, wait yes, I created a set of similar hand weapons (i.e. price of 90 silver), for which I gave a similar special ability. For example, I created something called war-sword which scoring one boon allowed you to remove a recharge token from the parry active defence; I created a spiked headed mace which one boon gave you pierce +1 etc, a double bladed axe which you could wield two handed (spending one manoeuver) for DR6 CR3.

 

Finally I downgraded the spear. If you used the spear to parry, you had to add 1 recharge token to the parry action card.

 

Whatever, If it works in your games, it sounds fine to me.

 

Cheers,

Yepes


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#5 DurakBlackaxe

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:51 PM

In the real world, I don't think two handed swords etc. were used in combat against Rapiers. But I could be wrong.  Just cant picture them in warfare.

 

 

Why not just have it simply that if the combined Strength + damage of the attackers weapon is at or above a certain amount a rapier cannot parry it, or breaks the weapon.  As it is the weapon that has to be able to take the damage of the blow.

 

Just an idea.



#6 k7e9

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

An easy fix might be that weapons with the "Fast" quality cannot be used to parry weapons with for example DR6 or higher . That way creatures with DR6< on their creature cards cannot be parried by them either.



#7 thePREdiger

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:22 AM

Can a rapier parry a great sword - ofc!

 

Dont think about a blade on blade situation, but the diestro can close the distance and parry the great sword hilt to hilt.

It is actually a very powerful technique and adds control over your opponent.

 

I would say this still counts as a parry.

 

 

In Kenjustu (Samurai) this technique is used to control and can be even used as a basis to carry out a throw.


Edited by thePREdiger, 19 August 2013 - 07:28 AM.


#8 Gallows

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:33 PM

Perhaps add an extra recharge token to parry when using a fast weapon

#9 valvorik

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:27 AM

I can 'narratively' justify it - it's not that you literally block the heavier weapon, it's that the fast play of your threatening pointy blade makes it harder for the attacker - since they don't want to be skewered by it.

 

Says the government employee accustomed to explaining how any wonky rule is completely sensible.



#10 Gallows

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:32 AM

I can 'narratively' justify it - it's not that you literally block the heavier weapon, it's that the fast play of your threatening pointy blade makes it harder for the attacker - since they don't want to be skewered by it.

 

Says the government employee accustomed to explaining how any wonky rule is completely sensible.

 

lol I'll buy that reasoning  :D



#11 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:47 PM

The Parry action does not automatically cancel an attack. It merely makes it a little more difficult, and the most likely result against a skilled foe is that you've reduced the damage on a hit that still connects. That seems like something that three to four feet of fast-moving steel should be able to accomplish.

"...for we admit that he who tries to parry the blows of a two-handed sword with a plain sword will find himself deceived and instead of a sword will find himself holding a dagger instead, But as the manner of resisting such force consists, not in opposing it, but in diverting and evading it..."
- Academy of the Sword by Girard Thibault, 1630, modern translation by Michael Greer


Old manuals on sword fighting tend to suggest rapiers not exactly parry against heavier weapons, but instead to counter with a thrust as the attacker opens up for the cutting swing, so as to divert them and keep them from completing the swing. Warhammer 3rd doesn't really have an equivalent to that maneuver, unless you interpret Parry to be a generic catch-all to any weapon-based defensive move.




That said, I will agree that Rapiers and Spears are a little too good as-is in WFRP 3E. It always puzzles me that people want to fix them in some way other than changing the "Fast" ability. Fast is the thing those weapons have in common, and it's what gives them all their power. Fast clearly didn't get play-tested at all. The original version in the core book didn't work. The version in the FAQ was first delivered as a quick response to an email, IIRC. If Fast cost 2 boons instead of 1, it would be a lot less broken. That would be a very simple and elegant change to make. Just sayin'.

Edited by r_b_bergstrom, 08 September 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#12 Emirikol

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 04:43 PM

So you're suggesting that to be able to use a spear or rapier's fast ability, you would need to sacrifice 2 boons?

I like that idea.  

 

jh



#13 Gallows

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

For some attacks the slow trait is better, when you want more tokens on your cards.



#14 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 01:39 PM

So you're suggesting that to be able to use a spear or rapier's fast ability, you would need to sacrifice 2 boons?

 

Yep, that's what I meant. 2 boons instead of 1. 

 

I think that would reign it in pretty well. Fast would trigger about half as often as it does by the rules, and even on better-than-average roll you'd have to make a difficult decision between reducing recharge or triggering whatever boon lines the action provides.






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