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The role of the Tactical Marine?


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#41 Blood Pact

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:35 AM

 

Cause I think it's cooler, and I'm already playing a Space Marine.

In this case, it'll be a Space Marine dealing damage comparable to an OW weapon specialist with a long-las.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing you for the choice, I'm actually bashing the rifle itself, as FFG seriously dropped the ball on it. I especially love how they spent half a page building it up as the ultimate sniper rifle with a ton of built-in customizations, but when you actually parse it for rules it comes out as a slightly better scout rifle with a bog-standard scope.

 

 

Except when I'm using the sniper rifle, the idea is to be stealthy. It's not an opportunity that comes up much, which is why it won't be the only thing they can do, either. It's easy to forget but the Ultra's other boon over the Stalker (aside from Felling) is that it's incredibly silent, with a -20 to Awareness and you can only hear it at half the normal range (I forget how far that is). You need to use Stalker shells with a Bolter (admittedly, they're good) if you want to be discreet. Because people exploding all over the place will tip someone off. Acids and fires aren't really subtle either.



#42 Morangias

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 12:12 PM

 

 

Cause I think it's cooler, and I'm already playing a Space Marine.

In this case, it'll be a Space Marine dealing damage comparable to an OW weapon specialist with a long-las.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing you for the choice, I'm actually bashing the rifle itself, as FFG seriously dropped the ball on it. I especially love how they spent half a page building it up as the ultimate sniper rifle with a ton of built-in customizations, but when you actually parse it for rules it comes out as a slightly better scout rifle with a bog-standard scope.

 

 

Except when I'm using the sniper rifle, the idea is to be stealthy. It's not an opportunity that comes up much, which is why it won't be the only thing they can do, either. It's easy to forget but the Ultra's other boon over the Stalker (aside from Felling) is that it's incredibly silent, with a -20 to Awareness and you can only hear it at half the normal range (I forget how far that is). You need to use Stalker shells with a Bolter (admittedly, they're good) if you want to be discreet. Because people exploding all over the place will tip someone off. Acids and fires aren't really subtle either.

Ironically enough, requisitioning a Stalker Bolter and a clip of Stalker Rounds (mind you, 24 of them, equivalent of 4 reloads for Ultra Pattern) costs 25 points, exactly the same as Ultra. That's many more absolutely stealthy shots than you'll need in the course of the mission - logically, most of the time you'll still be with your team, utilizing tactical marksmanship rather than sniping per se, and then you really don't need a super-stealthy ammo - the hail of your comrades' bolts will dampen your shots well enough.


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#43 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:21 AM

The best use is in a true 'sneaky beaky' mission - everyone in scout armour, sniper rifles, stalkers and raven-pattern shotguns a-go-go.

 

Its main advantage over the stalker, in my mind (not a rules thing, I admit) is that it is, as noted, a lot quieter at the other end. Whilst it's functionally impossible to trace a stalker shot back to the firer, people are definitely going to know one has been used as the target still explodes like a pan of beef stroganoff with a firecracker dropped in it....

 

The ultra lets you stay covert that fraction longer.



#44 Morangias

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:00 AM

The best use is in a true 'sneaky beaky' mission - everyone in scout armour, sniper rifles, stalkers and raven-pattern shotguns a-go-go.

Very hard to conduct, seeing that Space Marines aren't that good at sneaking without some extra investment.

 

Its main advantage over the stalker, in my mind (not a rules thing, I admit) is that it is, as noted, a lot quieter at the other end. Whilst it's functionally impossible to trace a stalker shot back to the firer, people are definitely going to know one has been used as the target still explodes like a pan of beef stroganoff with a firecracker dropped in it....

 

The ultra lets you stay covert that fraction longer.

Unless the shot simply fails to kill, in which case it becomes much, much worse.

 

Admittedly, sniping is overall a risky undertaking - while the extra damage from Accurate is quite fearsome, it creates an incredibly big spread of damage, making it much better for tactical marksmanship than for clean one-shot stealth kills.


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#45 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 06:16 AM

Oh, definitely. However, Kill-team Cadmus (whom I GM for) has a Dark Angel with Tactics (Recon & Stealth) +20 and Talented (Tactics), a Wolf Scout, a Raptor, a Raven Guard and a Carcharodon. They have been somewhat tailored to doing fiendish ninja-attack type stuff.

 

And I fully agree that sniping is in theory risky because a bad damage roll could see the alert raised. However I've found that the Raptor Sniper does not, as a rule, fail to kill things.

 

This is especially since you can use fate points to add Degrees of Success to the hit - one of the few occasions where a fate point can directly improve your damage roll, and (generally) he is taking down sentries who are generic humans or equivalents thereto.

 

Lastly, and most importantly, of course, the Mk.IX is unrestricted whilst the Stalker-Pattern is only available at 'respected' reknown or better. There is a period at the start of a game where it may be the only option.



#46 Blood Pact

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:15 PM

Putting the sniper on the firing line with everyone else isn't really the best tactic anyway. If you're playing a scout too then you can use that stealth to move on to the flank and attack from that direction, negating the cover they're using against the firing line and picking off more dangerous enemies that might be 'screened' by mobs. Or cutting off the escape of a high value target who might decide to flee if the fight turns against him.

 

I remember my first game of Deathwatch, which was playing as a Black Templars Techmarine, and one of our first missions was to kill a governor who'd turned to the Tau's side. In hindsight a scout/sniper would have been handy for hunting the little twerp down. Though having my Black Templar suggest we crash a system defence ship in to a hive city was fun to (even if I didn't get to do it).



#47 revanant

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:04 AM

In tabletop, I use my Long Fangs as missile-launching snipers.

 

In Deathwatch, I use my Long Fang as a missile-launching sniper.

 

For 10 Requisition, a tactical marine can't go wrong in nabbing a Soundstrike ML.



#48 blazingsquirrel

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:47 AM

So far in the games I've played, my teams have yet to have the chance of taking stealth due to the assault and devastators refusing to believe you can sneak on people with a jump pack and a big gun (something that Space Marine multiplayer has thoroughly debunked). However, in all my games I've played as a Tactical Marine and felt that despite not having insane melee power of an Assault Marine or the ranged prowess of a Devastator, the fact that they can mix it up really well has saved my hide on many occasions. When we fought Tyranid, I was able to join the Devasator in gunning down the 'gaunts while against Tau I was able to charge in with the Assault Marine to prevent them from murdering us with those blasted guns. The flexibility of that and the capability of sharing your chapter's squad mode abilities has allowed my team to rampage through the missions effectively (apparently before I joined the team they never had a Tactical Marine and never used Squad Mode).

 

All in all, my experience in the 40k systems is that despite tooling your character for melee/range, I found myself constantly put in the opposite situation I generally want thus making me more open to the all 'rounder builds.



#49 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:22 AM

So far in the games I've played, my teams have yet to have the chance of taking stealth due to the assault and devastators refusing to believe you can sneak on people with a jump pack and a big gun (something that Space Marine multiplayer has thoroughly debunked).

 

The trick is putting them in situations where they don't really have a choice....

Example missions:

  • The kill-team are being deployed to an ocean world with literally no land - just a few ships and floating rig emplacements. They are provided with a land speeder storm. Scout armour is required because (a) a storm can't cope with the weight of a team in aquilla-pattern powered plate and (b) if you go in the water, a scout can swim - an armoured marine can't, and that essentially means death.
  • The kill-team are being deployed in scout armour with shotguns, blades and sniper rifles. They are heavily outnumbered and outgunned and they need to be sneaky because there can be no witnesses, no large-scale battles and above all no casualties caused by identifiable astartes wargear such as bolt rounds. The target? A Lord-Governor that the Ordos need disposing of quietly. If it became public knowledge that the Imperium had him killed the results would be (almost) as bad as letting him live. The matter is too time-critical to wait for the High Lords of Terra to sanction the deployment of an Assassinorium agent.

     



#50 CaptainStabby

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:51 PM

The idea that a modern sniper sits in one spot for days waiting for a target etc... is quite a bit of a misnomer. Sure it happens but its been proven in the past few decades in Iraq and Afghanistan that highly mobile snipers with a small support team can dominate a battlefield. Almost sounds like a Kill-Team huh?

 

Check out a book called Shooter. Top Ranked USMC sniper who was a big part of changing modern sniper tactics to great effect.



#51 blazingsquirrel

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 01:20 AM

Generally when you miss a shot I believe the sniper would immediately reposition. The sit in one spot thing is what bad snipers do in and out of video games.



#52 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:17 AM

Never mind missing, even if you hit you reposition. Soldiers tend to turn up mob-handed.



#53 blazingsquirrel

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

Never mind missing, even if you hit you reposition. Soldiers tend to turn up mob-handed.

True story. Even if they don't initially detect you, they will eventually find out where it came from and they will be out for blood.



#54 Gavmando

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

If your intention is to make a Tactical marine sniper, then you should go a Raptor.

Whilst you dont get the +5BS that some other chapters get, you do have access to Marksman as a starting skill (at 600xp), and you get to choose a Marksman Gun Sight as your chapter trapping.

Your first choice should always be the Focal Targeter. It adds your Perception bonus to the weapons armour penetration. So a standard bolt round is now pen 8. And it also means you could fire a Kraken round with a pen of 12. And that will take out pretty much anything. (Dependent on a per bonus of 4.) And Raptors get +5Per at character creation.

And for your second choice, the Laser Tracer, which gives you +10BS on single shots is ok, or you could choose the Long Range Imaging. That adds +20m to the range of your gun.

So, here comes the maths part;

A Stalker with a Focal Targeter and Long Range Imaging, using Kraken rounds, could potentially fire 990m, with an armour penetration of 12.

200+20=220

220/2=110

220+110=330

330x3=990

And if you had Marksman, you would have no penalties for the range. You dont need to worry as much about someone hearing the shot from that far away. The bullet would reach them before the sound does.

 

Damn. I wish I could change my sight now. I shouldnt have taken Shadow Light. I should have taken the Long Range Imaging instead...

 

Edit:

I should have read the rules more clearly in regards to range. It appears that you can fire up to 4 times your base range. Therefore, you could potentially fire a Kraken round up to 1320m. And that's pretty darn good.


Edited by Gavmando, 19 April 2014 - 08:54 AM.

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#55 Kshatriya

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:01 PM

Tacmarines are pretty good with sharing non-Chapter Squad Modes...until everyone buys Forging the Bond from Rites of Battle (and there's literally no reason not to). I personally consider Squad Modes the bread-and-butter of not just surviving DW combat but really efficiently annihilating enemies.

 

Aside from that, their other big claim to fame is being able to swear so many different Oaths if they're squad leader - which can be incredibly useful, especially given the rules in Ark of Souls to switch Oaths during a mission.

 

Yeah, they're a jack-of-all-trades on their Talent tables, but the lack of buying higher levels of Command is just horrible, IMO. I don't like to play jacks-of-all-trades to begin with in Deathwatch so I'm not a huge fan of Tacmarines (especially since the creation of Forging the Bond obviating Tactical Expertise, and Solo Mode rarely being a better option than Squad Mode in my experience). But they do perform that variable role pretty well.



#56 Morangias

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:32 PM

"Jack of all trades" is such a nasty term. I prefer "omnitactical battle hydra", myself  ;)


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#57 Kshatriya

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:33 PM

They're...not quite on that level unfortunately. Nor are they anywhere close to being a 2e Dawn Caste post-Dawn Solution.  :P But I REALLY hated tacmarines for a while, looking back at their tables they are not as bad as I thought. But not as good as the more-specialist specialties without picking a strong Chapter to go along with them.


Edited by Kshatriya, 14 October 2013 - 10:34 PM.


#58 Morangias

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:06 AM

Yeah, they're more like Dragon-Blooded, in that a hundred of them is more than sufficient to steamroll pretty much any single thing in existence  ;)

 

The key to playing Tacmarine is, well, thinking tactically. When the situation is bad, you plug whatever hole needs plugging the most, when the situation is good, you go to town supporting whomever has the most difficult job at the moment. It's generally a situation out of most people's comfort zone when playing a supposed combat demigod, but it can be very rewarding, especially for people who don't much enjoy doing the same thing all day, every day.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#59 DavinHeracles

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Posted Today, 10:47 PM

Last time I checked the Stalker also had a -30 to Awareness tests made to hear the shot. Stalker rounds make it so no test can be taken to hear the shot. Stalker is the ultimate sniper weapon in DW. I played a tac marine that had a master-crafted Stalker as well as a targeter... those were glorious times of one shotting quite a few enemies.




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