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The role of the Tactical Marine?


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#21 LordBlades

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:10 AM

 

There's nothing preventing a Tactical Marine taking a Heavy Bolter and a Jump Pack other than Requisition Points limits, Renown, and a crabby GM. The Tactical Marine becomes the Assault Devastator.

 

A heavy bolter that will have limited ammo, since I'm not seeing a jump pack and an ammo backpack at the same time.

 

At least at rank 1 you can get a heavy bolter and backpack and devastate better than a devastator in solo mode (you get +10 BS and +2 damage any time, he gets +10 BS in cover)



#22 Morangias

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:40 PM

 

 

There's nothing preventing a Tactical Marine taking a Heavy Bolter and a Jump Pack other than Requisition Points limits, Renown, and a crabby GM. The Tactical Marine becomes the Assault Devastator.

 

A heavy bolter that will have limited ammo, since I'm not seeing a jump pack and an ammo backpack at the same time.

 

At least at rank 1 you can get a heavy bolter and backpack and devastate better than a devastator in solo mode (you get +10 BS and +2 damage any time, he gets +10 BS in cover)

Anyone takes that over dealing extra hits to Hordes?  :huh:


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#23 LordBlades

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:11 PM

 

 

 

There's nothing preventing a Tactical Marine taking a Heavy Bolter and a Jump Pack other than Requisition Points limits, Renown, and a crabby GM. The Tactical Marine becomes the Assault Devastator.

 

A heavy bolter that will have limited ammo, since I'm not seeing a jump pack and an ammo backpack at the same time.

 

At least at rank 1 you can get a heavy bolter and backpack and devastate better than a devastator in solo mode (you get +10 BS and +2 damage any time, he gets +10 BS in cover)

Anyone takes that over dealing extra hits to Hordes?  :huh:

 

Honestly, I probably would if I was playing a devastator. Never playd Deathwatch until now so no idea how good stuff that does stuff to Hordes is because I've never seen hordes in action



#24 Adeptus-B

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:46 PM

... Never playd Deathwatch until now so no idea how good stuff that does stuff to Hordes is because I've never seen hordes in action

 

Trust me, Horde-busting is a Devastator's primary purpose in life. Sure, once in a while you may need them to introduce a high-priority objective to Mr. Lascannon, but on a typical mission (especially at lower Ranks), de-Magintuding Hordes is Job 1.


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#25 Morangias

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 06:48 AM

What Adeptus-B said. In DW, it's almost impossible to miss with a full auto weapon, so a +10 to hit isn't that relevant. On the other hand, a Magnitude 20 horde of Guardsmen will shoot twice in a round with 3-shot semi-auto bursts dealing 3d10+3 damage per hit and it's attacks cannot be dodged. And that's pretty much the bottom of the barrel - a Fire Warrior Horde of the same Magnitude will also shoot twice with a four shot full-auto burst, each hit dealing either 4d10+2 or 3d10+12 damage with Pen 4, depending on which weapon stats you use. That's really as much of a priority target as that battlesuit, and the Devastator is the one best equipped to take it out quickly.


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#26 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 06:33 PM

I believe at higher ranks, tacticals are the only ones who can take two weapon fighting and apply it to basic weapons.  So you could be rocking a melta and plasma gun combo.  (go salamander and you can have both masterworked signatured.) 



#27 TormDK

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:46 AM

#26 that is possible from Rank 1 due to recoil gloves. The Assault marine has that option right from the get-go.



#28 ak-73

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:05 PM

Tacticals are leaders and shooty PCs. DW Devastators, unlike home chapter ones, are simply shooting specialists (as evidenced by their sniping skills) - not just heavy weapons.

 

And the Tacticals +10 hit/+2 damage is very good. It multiples by number of hits. Tacticals are not jack of all trades until very, very high ranks. In melee, numbers of attacks/parry matter and the Tactical can't compete there.

 

 

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#29 TormDK

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:07 PM

I would argue that a tactical marine really shouldn't be in solo mode.

 

But YMMV I suppose :)



#30 Morangias

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:24 PM

I would argue that a tactical marine really shouldn't be in solo mode.

 

But YMMV I suppose :)

That depends heavily on the situation at hand, as well as what the Tacmarine is best suited to do.


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#31 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:19 AM

As noted, the tactical marine is an all-rounder - with an almost de-facto mag-locked sword you can handle any situation.

 

The two areas he especially excells in are:

 

1) The commander. Tactical Expertise is okay, but default command and cheap leadership skills are what really make the tactical marine the go-to guy for a kill team leader.

 

2) The sniper. With the best sniper-type weapons in the game being bolter-type weapons, they suit the tactical marine to a tee. Yes, all right, man-portable lascannon, but stalker-pattern weapons are quieter, hesh-pattern weapons are more flexible and the horrific barratt-equivalent relic thing from the Emperor's Chosen is just harsh beyond all measure. More importantly, they all accept the special ammo types that you get a free clip of.



#32 Blood Pact

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:01 PM

 

I really meant that they are the ultimate clean slate.  With all the myriad Skills and Talents, coupled with Chapter Traits, one can craft and built a Career Path to becoming whatever one wishes their Marine to ultimately become.  A Close Quarters Enthusiast or Ranged Marksman, a Lore, Tech or Medic Assistant/Backup or Driver/Pilot or whatever.  They have the fewest restrictions compared to the other "Specialist" Classes.

 

That's my plan. I'm making a tactical marine that's focusing on driving atm (ravenwing veteran), so I've invested everything I had into being a good driver (maxed out agility) and shooter (maxed out BS, Bolter Mastery). I was just thinking about what role to fill when I'm not driving/shooting from a bike, and I was a bit worried that I'd be slightly behind every other party member (ranged focused techmarine, devastator, assault marine and apothecary).

 

 

 

With its flexibility and general lack of restrictions (having access to most Talents and Skills that Devs and Assault do) I've always thought about the Tactical similarly.

 

 

I have a White Scar scoutmaster (as in, a Sergeant who works with the Scouts) concept I'd love to play, and it works perfectly as just a Tactical specialist, as opposed to modifying the Wolf Scouts, or making up something new.

 

 

And 1,000 for Ravenwing isn't that bad, considering that a signature piece of wargear (the bike) would be about half that amount.

 

 

And I know Rites of Battle was from a while ago, but I thought the Ultra Mk.IX rifle was pretty much the top of the line for sniper rifles in Deathwatch. Even though it doesn't get bonuses for being a Bolter.



#33 Morangias

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:12 PM

 

 

I really meant that they are the ultimate clean slate.  With all the myriad Skills and Talents, coupled with Chapter Traits, one can craft and built a Career Path to becoming whatever one wishes their Marine to ultimately become.  A Close Quarters Enthusiast or Ranged Marksman, a Lore, Tech or Medic Assistant/Backup or Driver/Pilot or whatever.  They have the fewest restrictions compared to the other "Specialist" Classes.

 

That's my plan. I'm making a tactical marine that's focusing on driving atm (ravenwing veteran), so I've invested everything I had into being a good driver (maxed out agility) and shooter (maxed out BS, Bolter Mastery). I was just thinking about what role to fill when I'm not driving/shooting from a bike, and I was a bit worried that I'd be slightly behind every other party member (ranged focused techmarine, devastator, assault marine and apothecary).

 

 

 

With its flexibility and general lack of restrictions (having access to most Talents and Skills that Devs and Assault do) I've always thought about the Tactical similarly.

That sounds overly optimistic. Tacticals get most useful shooting Talents and barely anything for melee (and what they do get for melee is ridiculously late in the ranks). They are no less restricted than any other Specialty in the game, and trying to build them into anything other than a straight-up shooter with some command stuff on the side will require relying heavily on Chapter advances, advanced Specialties, Deeds and Honors.

 

 

And I know Rites of Battle was from a while ago, but I thought the Ultra Mk.IX rifle was pretty much the top of the line for sniper rifles in Deathwatch. Even though it doesn't get bonuses for being a Bolter.

Not by a long shot. (Pun not intended).

 

Going by errata stats:

 

Stalker Bolter: Range 200m Damage d10+9 Pen 4 Clip 24 Reload Full Qualities: Accurate, Tearing

Ultra Rifle: Range 250m Damage d10+4 Pen 2 Clip 5 Reload Full Qualities: Accurate, Felling (1), Toxic

 

Slightly better range, abysmal ammo capacity, worse Penetration. Felling will about make up for the damage difference, but only against enemies that have Unnatural Toughness (admittedly, quite a lot in DW, but it will still rarely come out on top damage-wise). Toxic is rather weak considering it doesn't affect Tyranids and Daemons at all and it's almost impossible for enemy Astartes to fail the roll.

 

That's all before you even consider all the awesome kinds of ammo you can put in Stalker:

 

Stalker - absolutely silent with no drawbacks

Kraken - up that range to 300m, blowing Ultra out of the water, and increase the Pen to 8 (what power armor again?)

Hellfire - ignore Natural Armor altogether (Tyranids can suck it!) and inflict Righteous Fury on 9 and 10

Vengeance - Pen 9 and Felling (1), need I say more?

Witch Bolts - mess up psykers and daemons something fierce.

 

Combine it with Bolter Mastery and that free clip of special ammo Tacmarines get for free each mission, and it's not even a competition, Stalker Bolter is clearly the superior sniping implement for Tacticals (and for anyone else, for that matter).


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#34 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:09 AM

Oh it gets nastier than that. Kratoiera - the one I mentioned in passing before - is a relic custom stalker from The Emperor's Chosen. Not only is it firing something more akin to heavy bolter rounds than standard ones, it also gets what is essentially Hunter of Aliens for a ranged weapon.

 

Plus, it still lets you use bolter mastery and fling hellfire shells.



#35 Blood Pact

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

Huh, I'd never thought of the special rounds before.

 

I'd still rather have the Ultra though.

 

Oh it gets nastier than that. Kratoiera - the one I mentioned in passing before - is a relic custom stalker from The Emperor's Chosen. Not only is it firing something more akin to heavy bolter rounds than standard ones, it also gets what is essentially Hunter of Aliens for a ranged weapon.

 

Plus, it still lets you use bolter mastery and fling hellfire shells.

 

And at the same time... daaaamn.



#36 Morangias

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 01:55 PM

I'd still rather have the Ultra though.

Kinda curious as to the reasons here.


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#37 Korvis

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 05:05 PM

 

I'd still rather have the Ultra though.

Kinda curious as to the reasons here.

 

 

Concur, I'm running a Wolf Scout with a Stalker Pattern Bolt Pistol and as soon as I am able I'll be upgrading to a Stalker Pattern Bolter.  Hellfire rounds are the bomb diggity against most and when facing CSM, Kraken rounds are the way to go.



#38 Morangias

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

 

 

I'd still rather have the Ultra though.

Kinda curious as to the reasons here.

 

 

Concur, I'm running a Wolf Scout with a Stalker Pattern Bolt Pistol and as soon as I am able I'll be upgrading to a Stalker Pattern Bolter.  Hellfire rounds are the bomb diggity against most and when facing CSM, Kraken rounds are the way to go.

My girlfriend once played a Raven Guard Tacmarine heavily focused on sniping and infiltration. My friend who ran it is kinda a Monty Haul GM, so he gave her a special sniper rifle with the stats of the Exitus Rifle from DH:Ascension. She performed rather poorly until I persuaded him to switch it to a Master Craftsmanship Stalker and advised her to load up on Kraken rounds. Then, she was death incarnate.


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#39 Blood Pact

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:18 AM

Cause I think it's cooler, and I'm already playing a Space Marine.

 

I'll mathhammer to the wargame..

 

Also, the character is a White Scar, I'm still going to be charging things on a bike from time to time.



#40 Morangias

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:05 AM

Cause I think it's cooler, and I'm already playing a Space Marine.

In this case, it'll be a Space Marine dealing damage comparable to an OW weapon specialist with a long-las.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm bashing you for the choice, I'm actually bashing the rifle itself, as FFG seriously dropped the ball on it. I especially love how they spent half a page building it up as the ultimate sniper rifle with a ton of built-in customizations, but when you actually parse it for rules it comes out as a slightly better scout rifle with a bog-standard scope.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.





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