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Thoughts about balance in descent


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#41 AltWren

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:08 PM

You've played incorrectly.  Tripwire triggers on a move action.  Steelhorns ability says "move your speed" not "take a move action."  Tripwire cannot be used.  Believe me, if I could trip him, we'd have a lot less of an issue.

 

And yes, having a party who overextends and doesn't aid each other with moving boulders is an excellent way to win the encounter and ensure Belthir has a turn to run.  Unfortunately, I play a four hero game where blocking and teamwork are much more common, and they would never leave themselves pinned when there were still six other actions to be taken by the party.  

 

Anyways, the issue is that Steelhorns can clear a path to Belthir and kill him before the OL has a turn in this situation.  Thank you for your efforts though.



#42 Cursain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:23 PM

I have a lot of trouble as the Overload, actually.  I tried to run Death on a Wing tonight.  The heroes won the first mission, because Spiders can't really stop an 8 movement double blasting Quellen, so their party started within range of Belthir for the second half.  I tried to set up to contain them with the elementals, but Steelhorns was having none of that and immediately cleared a path for the rest of the group.  Belthir had taken 14 damage and was stunned before I even got a turn.  Then, due to stun, he could only use one move action and the party quickly caught up to him and finished him.  I did manage to take down two of them on my turn, but a single action from Avric has the whole party back on their feet.

 

I really dislike how ineffective defeating a hero is in the game.  Wow, you get another card, such as a tripwire, and worst case scenario, the heroes lose one action whilst they pick their guy up.  At least make them miss a turn or something.

Steelhorn's ability is nasty.  About your best bet is to use Basic II deck and start using Saboteur.  Webs and grease trap would work pretty good.

 

Also, if you're worried about your lieutenant's getting wasted to quickly, you may want to consider some universal OL cards such as Dark Remedy or Resilience.


Edited by Cursain, 15 August 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#43 Bayushiseni

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

You're right. It says move your speed. I will have to apologize to my friend and wife.

It's not hard to pin someone, if you bait them well.

Still, I have to try again with the correct rules. If I find that Steelhorns is too poerful, I'll use Hanzo Hatori good council and I make an house rule and change the wording from "move your speed" to "As a Move action". It's my game and for me and mine enjoy it.


Tactics? Check! Strategy? Check! Dice roll? #$%&!!

 


#44 JorduSpeaks

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:05 PM

Actually, I think a move action is any action that provides movement, in the same way that an attack action is any action that causes a figure to attack.  It's the same reason why a minion reaver can't attack and skirmish in the same turn.



#45 Cursain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:31 PM

You've played incorrectly.  Tripwire triggers on a move action.  Steelhorns ability says "move your speed" not "take a move action."  Tripwire cannot be used.  Believe me, if I could trip him, we'd have a lot less of an issue.

 

And yes, having a party who overextends and doesn't aid each other with moving boulders is an excellent way to win the encounter and ensure Belthir has a turn to run.  Unfortunately, I play a four hero game where blocking and teamwork are much more common, and they would never leave themselves pinned when there were still six other actions to be taken by the party.  

 

Anyways, the issue is that Steelhorns can clear a path to Belthir and kill him before the OL has a turn in this situation.  Thank you for your efforts though.

 

I don't think you're playing that right.  It is a "move" action per-say.  The figure is moving from one space to the next.  It's not like a Throw or Knockback effect where you pick up the model and place it in a new tile.

 

Tripwife and Pittrap both will work.

 

You have like six different cards to deal with that ability now.



#46 Bayushiseni

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

Once we open the plastic around it, the game is ours to have fun with it.

 

I've changed rules in almost all games I love to play:

 

Leviathan is the late '80's. The swarm of missiles would cripple the game in the very begining. I've cut them to 1/3rd and it played just fine. Still a force to be scared of, but you would have to maneuver and break the enemy rank for them to destroy the enemy.

 

Wings of War (now Wings of Glory). I needed 30º maneuvers. I pillaged a deck and made them. If we were playing serious, the fixed firing arcs weren't 60º angles but just the front of the planes.

 

Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition. No more victory points. We made secret victory conditions and it has been a blast since.

 

Etc.

 

The day I feel I need to change Descent 2nd Edition to maintain my fun, I'll do it.

 

As a tabletop player and a GM, I aim to the pleasure of all involved. Less than that, it's a waist of time.


Tactics? Check! Strategy? Check! Dice roll? #$%&!!

 


#47 AltWren

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:11 PM

I don't think you're playing that right.  It is a "move" action per-say.  The figure is moving from one space to the next.  It's not like a Throw or Knockback effect where you pick up the model and place it in a new tile.

 

Tripwife and Pittrap both will work.

 

You have like six different cards to deal with that ability now.

 

 

I don't know about that, sir.  Pit Trap and Web definitely work, because they say "When a hero enters an empty space" but Tripwire says "When a hero enters an empty space during a move action."  Very different wording.  He's technically using a heroic feat, not a move action.  I'd love to hit him with tripwires, but I don't know if it's legal.

 

-------

 

@ Cursain:  Basic II huh?  I don't own it yet...  I wonder if I can find it before our next game on Sunday.  Thanks for the suggestion.



#48 Cursain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:24 PM

 

I don't think you're playing that right.  It is a "move" action per-say.  The figure is moving from one space to the next.  It's not like a Throw or Knockback effect where you pick up the model and place it in a new tile.

 

Tripwife and Pittrap both will work.

 

You have like six different cards to deal with that ability now.

 

 

I don't know about that, sir.  Pit Trap and Web definitely work, because they say "When a hero enters an empty space" but Tripwire says "When a hero enters an empty space during a move action."  Very different wording.  He's technically using a heroic feat, not a move action.  I'd love to hit him with tripwires, but I don't know if it's legal.

 

-------

 

@ Cursain:  Basic II huh?  I don't own it yet...  I wonder if I can find it before our next game on Sunday.  Thanks for the suggestion.

 

 

Yea, Grease Trap is a lot of fun, and very effective:

 

Play this card when a hero enter an empty space.  He tests awareness.  If he passes he suffers 1 fatigue.  If he fails, move the hero 3 spaces in a straight line in the same direction he last moved.  For each space he cannot move, he suffers 1health or 1fitigue (your choice).  If character is a mage, the hero is stunned.

Overwhelm:

 

Play this card during your turn on a hero adjacent to 4 or more monsters.  He tests willpower.  If he passes immediately attach with 1 adjacent monster of your choice.  If he fails, the hero is stunned and immobilized.

 

 

I would argue his ability is a move action.  Notice the errata mentions the Immobilized condition with special movement cards, and page 9 under "use a skill" and the "move" section on page 8.

 

It would be tough to say trip wire doesn't work.


Edited by Cursain, 15 August 2013 - 08:28 PM.


#49 AltWren

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 08:45 PM

I actually realized something else too while I was gone.  Steelhorns isn't entering empty spaces.  He's entering spaces containing monsters.



#50 Cursain

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:22 PM

I actually realized something else too while I was gone.  Steelhorns isn't entering empty spaces.  He's entering spaces containing monsters.

 

Yea, that's going to be a problem.  You might need to think about using monsters with knockback.  Ogres are fairly nasty, especially with the master's undying skill.


Edited by Cursain, 15 August 2013 - 09:22 PM.


#51 wum1ng

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:47 AM

 

I don't think you're playing that right.  It is a "move" action per-say.  The figure is moving from one space to the next.  It's not like a Throw or Knockback effect where you pick up the model and place it in a new tile.

 

Tripwife and Pittrap both will work.

 

You have like six different cards to deal with that ability now.

 

 

Technically, a "move action" merely gives you movement points, and you use those movement points to move out. There are multiple ways of getting movement points, be it fatigue, items, abilities etc.

 

By the rules, I agree with AltWren that using the heroic feat isn't technically a "move action" and hence cards that use it as a trigger would not be applicable.

 

One thing I have come to love is the Cursed condition (only available in LoR). It stops heroes from using skills that need an action, for example the heroic feat. They need to test knowledge to drop the condition, and in the early game before the healer gets condition removal this is a massive headache to Warriors and other low-Knowledge heroes.



#52 Steve-O

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 05:48 AM

Actually, I think a move action is any action that provides movement, in the same way that an attack action is any action that causes a figure to attack.  It's the same reason why a minion reaver can't attack and skirmish in the same turn.

 

That is not correct, per RAW anyway.

 

Only a Move Action is a Move Action.  Anything else that lets you move is just an ability that grants you MP (which may or may not require a Special Action to perform.)  FFG has clarified, for example, that Immobilize only prevents a hero from using a Move Action or burning fatigue to gain MP.  It does not prevent any other ability that grants MP.

 

Likewise, only an Attack Action is an Attack Action.  Other abilities that allow the figure to "perform an attack" are not "Attack Actions." (A Monster Action that performs an attack will count as the monster's one attack for that turn, but this does not mean it's an Attack Action - it is still a Monster Action.)  FFG has also clarified that OL cards, like Frenzy, which grant an extra Attack Action do not allow the monster to use a Monster Action that performs an attack.  It only grants a "basic attack," if you will.

 

If you want to house rule otherwise at your table, I can't say I blame you.  I've considered similar house rules myself, though I have yet to implement any.  These would be house rules, though.  They are not the official rules, nor are they "what the game designer intended."  FFG has been fairly clear about their intent in this area.


Edited by Steve-O, 16 August 2013 - 05:50 AM.

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#53 AltWren

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:07 PM

(A Monster Action that performs an attack will count as the monster's one attack for that turn, but this does not mean it's an Attack Action - it is still a Monster Action.)

 

Where's that from?  Does that mean an elemental can't 'Fire' twice a turn?  Can an Ettin attack and 'Grab'?  Oops, I'm a cheater...  Rules, why you do complicated and contradictory?



#54 Robin

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:53 PM

If the word "attack" is in the action's description, the Monster can make that action only once.

 

Rulebook, p. 11: "Monster Action: Some monsters have unique actions listed on their Monster card with a (arrow) . If any special action allows the monster to perform an attack, it counts as the monster’s one attack action for that activation."


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#55 griton

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:34 AM

Does that mean an elemental can't 'Fire' twice a turn? 

Correct, 'Fire', as a Monster Action that performs an attack, can only be done once. Being an attack, it counts as the one attack action it can do on its activation; the other action can NOT be an Attack Action nor any other Monster Action that involves an attack (not that the Elemental has one, but if it did, it couldn't use it either).

 

Can an Ettin attack and 'Grab'?

Yes. An Ettin's 'Throw' ability, while it does use an action and does cause damage if successful is NOT an attack; so while it counts as one of the two actions it can perform, the other action MAY be some kind of attack (either an Attack Action, or, if it had one, a Monster Action that involved an attack).


Edited by griton, 21 August 2013 - 08:36 AM.


#56 Husker949

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:29 AM

I believe that the FAQ even has an example about the Elemental's Fire ability being an invalid action. I have used Throw on the Castle Daerion pt. 2 to chuck the guy (can't remember his name off hand) back into the library and just block off the way in.






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