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Rite of the Silver Gate/Equal Cost


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#1 Hybrid

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:08 PM

I humbly invoke the aid of the community to settle a dispute!

 

 

Rite of the Silver Gate

Rending Space-Time 

Type: Support Faction: Yog-Sothoth

Cost: 3 

Ritual.

Fated 3.

Action: Exhaust Rite of the Silver Gate to choose a non-story card in play. The controller of that card reveals the top card of his deck and compares its cost to that of the chosen card. Discard the card with the highest cost. Then, place a success token on the Rite of the Silver Gate.

Illustrator: Stephen Somers

Set: TKatG

 

So if the chosen card and revealed card have the same cost nothing happens right? Nothing gets discarded and no token is placed? If the card used 'higher' instead of 'highest' I think there would be no dispute. Thank you for your assistance great wise ones!



#2 badash56

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 05:28 AM

I *think* you are correct, I'm not sure though.  Anyone else have an idea?



#3 TheProfessor

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:24 AM

I don't know the answer either, but there is this precedent from the FAQ:

 

 

 

At any time a card effect targets a character with the lowest skill and there is a tie, the card effect’s controller may choose which character is affected.

 

I'm not saying that this definitely applies, but if it does it would suggest that since both cards are the highest cost, the card effect's controller may choose.

 

But, probably needs an official ruling on what to do with ties in general...



#4 badash56

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:56 AM

I've submitted an official rules question.  I'll let everyone know the resolution.



#5 Hybrid

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

Hey, thanks for the submission and replies! While we're waiting I have another question, when the active player no longer has a character committed to a story but the defender does, do icon struggles still resolve at that story?



#6 jhaelen

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:13 AM

I humbly invoke the aid of the community to settle a dispute!

 

 

Rite of the Silver Gate

Rending Space-Time 

Type: Support Faction: Yog-Sothoth

Cost: 3 

Ritual.

Fated 3.

Action: Exhaust Rite of the Silver Gate to choose a non-story card in play. The controller of that card reveals the top card of his deck and compares its cost to that of the chosen card. Discard the card with the highest cost. Then, place a success token on the Rite of the Silver Gate.

Illustrator: Stephen Somers

Set: TKatG

 

So if the chosen card and revealed card have the same cost nothing happens right? Nothing gets discarded and no token is placed? If the card used 'higher' instead of 'highest' I think there would be no dispute. Thank you for your assistance great wise ones!

Note that the card text does not say 'Discard the card with the higher cost.' If that was the case, then nothing would happen if both cards had the same cost. But as written, both cards have the highest cost, hence the effect's controller gets to choose.



#7 jhaelen

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:19 AM

Hey, thanks for the submission and replies! While we're waiting I have another question, when the active player no longer has a character committed to a story but the defender does, do icon struggles still resolve at that story?

We've recently had a lengthy discussion about this here. Basically it depends on when the story ends up without characters of the active player. Icon struggles will resolve, if at the time it was checked if there are characters of the active player, there were one or more characters present. If not, then the story will not be resolved.

 

Now, the open question is when is that check made? Personally, I believe the check is made right on a story-by-story basis right before a given story would be resolved. But the rules are sufficiently imprecise that it's also possible the check happens for all stories right before the first story is resolved. I recommend submitting the Rule Question using the official channels.



#8 badash56

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:31 AM

> 1. Rite of the Silver Gate - What happens if the revealed card and the target card have the same cost? Do you get to choose which is discarded, or does nothing happen?

Nothing happens. If the card said to choose the card with the highest cost, that ability to choose would let you select one of the cards since they both qualify as having the highest cost. Because there is no choice the revealed card must be a different cost for there to be an effect.

 

 

Forgot to ask - if nothing is discarded due to the tie, do you still place a token on Rite of the Silver Gate?  

 

Nope.

 

 


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#9 Hybrid

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 10:13 PM

I submitted as you suggested! I'll be sure to to pass on anything official.

 

 

Hey, thanks for the submission and replies! While we're waiting I have another question, when the active player no longer has a character committed to a story but the defender does, do icon struggles still resolve at that story?

We've recently had a lengthy discussion about this here. Basically it depends on when the story ends up without characters of the active player. Icon struggles will resolve, if at the time it was checked if there are characters of the active player, there were one or more characters present. If not, then the story will not be resolved.

 

Now, the open question is when is that check made? Personally, I believe the check is made right on a story-by-story basis right before a given story would be resolved. But the rules are sufficiently imprecise that it's also possible the check happens for all stories right before the first story is resolved. I recommend submitting the Rule Question using the official channels.

 


Edited by Hybrid, 09 August 2013 - 10:15 PM.


#10 jhaelen

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:24 AM

 

> 1. Rite of the Silver Gate - What happens if the revealed card and the target card have the same cost? Do you get to choose which is discarded, or does nothing happen?

Nothing happens. If the card said to choose the card with the highest cost, that ability to choose would let you select one of the cards since they both qualify as having the highest cost. Because there is no choice the revealed card must be a different cost for there to be an effect.


 

*sigh* - rulings in CoC never cease to surprise me. So, thanks for getting an official answer!


Edited by jhaelen, 12 August 2013 - 01:25 AM.


#11 Hybrid

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:38 AM

Damon's answer-

 

A character of the active player must be at the story at the time of story resolution, for that particular story. If the character is removed at any point before that particular story starts to resolve there is no story to resolve. If that character is removed at any point after  that particular story has begun to resolve it continues.

 

 

Rule Question:
My question is, when is the check made to determine if the active player has a character committed to a story to decide if the story will resolve?

We played it, if the active player's characters are removed from story #1 before any struggles have resolved at any story then story #1 will not resolve but if that character is instead removed after a struggle has resolved at any story then story #1 will resolve. Is this correct? Will a story only resolve fully if the active player has a character committed to it and has chosen to begin resolving it's icon struggles?


Thanks for your time and attention! : )

 

 


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#12 TheProfessor

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:35 PM

 

 

> 1. Rite of the Silver Gate - What happens if the revealed card and the target card have the same cost? Do you get to choose which is discarded, or does nothing happen?

Nothing happens. If the card said to choose the card with the highest cost, that ability to choose would let you select one of the cards since they both qualify as having the highest cost. Because there is no choice the revealed card must be a different cost for there to be an effect.

 

I think what I don't like about this answer is that if, as Damon says, "both qualify as having the highest cost", why aren't both discarded?  It makes more sense than none.


Edited by TheProfessor, 14 August 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#13 Honest

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:53 AM

Has there been official clarification on this yet?

 

Honest



#14 TheProfessor

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

Has there been official clarification on this yet?

 

Honest

Yes - the comments above from Damon are the official ruling.



#15 Honest

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

Thankls-which handle is Damon?



#16 TheProfessor

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:46 PM

Damon is the designer/rules guy for the game.  He doesn't post here - we send emails for rules questions and protocol is to post the answer here in the forums.

 

When someone says they wrote to FFG and got a reply from Damon, we trust the poster is telling the truth.

 

Eventually these answers find their way into the FAQ.



#17 Honest

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:39 PM

Awesome and many thanks. I am still trying to find which answer is Damons on the Rite of the Silver Gate question from amongst the various answers given

 

Cheers

 

Honest



#18 jhaelen

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:49 AM

Awesome and many thanks. I am still trying to find which answer is Damons on the Rite of the Silver Gate question from amongst the various answers given

 

Cheers

 

Honest

It's quoted in post #8.



#19 Honest

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:13 AM

Again to all many thanks, we have been playing it wrong

 

Honest



#20 jasonconlon

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:36 PM

Some additional explanation from Damon...

My question was:

I'm looking for some additional clarification in relation to an answer you recently provided to someone else regarding what happens when a card references 'highest cost' as per http://community.fan...st/#entry834954

I'm trying to understand your ruling in a broader sense to apply it to similar cards. What are the rules where ties occur for quantity comparisons?

I'd always assumed that the following FAQ entry could be applied to all such situations, but based on your response that's obviously not the case.
"(2.29) Lowest Skill
...
At any time a card effect targets a character with the lowest skill and there is a tie, the card effect’s controller may choose which character is affected."

So what are the keywords here that differentiate the approach, and what approach should be taken in each situation?

Does the explicit reference to "character", "lowest" and/or "skill" mean that only their tied quantity comparisons should be handled as stated, and if so then what is the rule for handling quantity comparisons for everything else?
Or should this rule be applied to any type of tied quantity comparison (e.g. apply the same rule to references of "highest", "fewest", etc. and to "cost", "[Terror] icons", "Dreamlands support cards", "cards in hand", etc.; such as for The Forgotten Explorer--"Forced Response: After your opponent has committed characters, choose the story with the fewest committed characters, minimum of 1. The Forgotten Explorer exhausts and then commits to that story." )?

Does the explicit reference to "target" mean that "choose" tied quantity comparisons should be handled as stated, and if so then what is the rule for non-targeted tied quantity comparisons?
Or can this rule be applied for non-targeted tied quantity comparisons (e.g. apply the same rule to where "choose" is not specified such as for Dreamlands Eclipse--"The player who controls the fewest Dreamlands support cards must play with the top card of his deck revealed.", and/or apply the same rule to where there is a "choose" but it is not specific to the tied quantity comparison such as for Rite of the Silver Gate--"Action: Exhaust Rite of the Silver Gate to choose a non-story card in play. The controller of that card reveals the top card of his deck and compares its cost to that of the chosen card. Discard the card with the highest cost Then, place a success token on the Rite of the Silver Gate.")?


Damon's response was:

The word choose implies targeting and that is how the tie is able to be broken since you must choose. When an effect does not give a choice then the game looks for absolute values for it to make the choice. If there is no way for the game to distinguish between them there is no effect.


Edited by jasonconlon, 21 August 2013 - 05:39 PM.





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