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Ammo capacity, harsh but fair?


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#1 Berrick

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

So I created a simple house rule to stop my players from becoming walking armouries.

 

Simply put I made it so a character can carry weapons up to their strength modifier.

 

Pistols and knives count as 0.5 with rifles, swords, shields and other similar sized weapons counting as 1. Particularly large weapons like flamers with tanks fitted and stubbers counting as 1.5 to 2.

 

So an acolyte with a strength bonus of 3 could carry a rifle weapon with a brace of pistols and perhaps a sword which seems reasonable.

 

This simple rule has proven effective as it has stopped us having to go over weapon weights time and again, made them have to stop and think about their weapon loadout prior to missions and investigations and stops them hoarding fallen weapons from enemies to spam for cash.

 

But this leads me to ammo, I'd like a similar rule as they currently carry tons of ammo and never come close to running out, I was thinking of ammo slots for magazines and clips.

 

It would make missions more exciting where ammo was scarce and therefore precious, would also highlight just how awesome las weapons are due to their robustness and general utility.

 

Ideas my fellow GM's?


I no longer have any problems, I have promethium to thank for that.


#2 Chimeara_NL

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:31 AM

Looks pretty good, but depending on the party maybe unnecessary ? simply saying a as DM "Sure you can carry 5 Lasguns, good luck dodging that Frag Grenade though" isn't an option ?

I understand that every Party and players are different, just saying that I don't need hard rules for that yet.

SImply asking the players for some common-sense in carrying capacity might work ^^

 

Ammo does look really interesting, maybe 4-6 magazines for rifles, a couple back-up for pistols ? It's gonna need some book keeping to keep track of it though.

That would be something I would consider to implement in my games, but how do you deal with one (or more) of the players going "Yhea well i throw a couple of magazines in my backpack" ?



#3 Angel of Death

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:19 PM

I have to say playing a game where I have figured out the wgt so my PC can do this

Danny-Trejo---Machete-006.jpg

That while I understand the idea, so of the fun is preparing for this is fun.


Edited by Angel of Death, 30 July 2013 - 01:19 PM.

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#4 Berrick

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:31 PM

I was thinking ammo slots but how many? And dependant on what factors? I want them to ration ammo and at times panic-pulling boots out of knives etc...


I no longer have any problems, I have promethium to thank for that.


#5 Angel of Death

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:35 PM

Well, FFG has kinda said that 3 mags per weapon is standard load out.


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#6 Morangias

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:13 AM

Well, FFG has kinda said that 3 mags per weapon is standard load out.

 

 Which is kinda okay for a civilian, but ridiculously low for a soldier.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#7 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 03:15 PM

I let my players keep 4 reloads per basic weapon and 2 reloads per pistol available. They can carry more ammunition in their backpacks, but they can only access it outside of combat to refill their magazines. The group assassin once ran out of autopistol bullets during a long fight, but this system works pretty well for our group.  Acolytes aren't supposed to be frontline infantry anyway -- if they end up in a fight where they completely exhaust their available ammo, something has gone horribly wrong.


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Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

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#8 Berrick

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:25 AM

I've gone with 3 spare mags per weapon, seems reasonable.

 

Also had to slam my players for interpreting grenade capacity as SB+2 as of each type when I meant total!

 

My thanks to the swift replies.


I no longer have any problems, I have promethium to thank for that.


#9 Jargal

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:28 AM

Forum ate my long post, but in general: your capacity depends on your equipment.



#10 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

Forum ate my long post, but in general: your capacity depends on your equipment.

 

I made all my players purchase a backpack and gear storage vest to address this.  They're 10 thrones total and ensure that characters have enough pouches and pockets to store everything.

 

EDIT: SB+2 grenades sounds like a good limit to me -- I might borrow this for my own group :D


Edited by Covered in Weasels, 04 August 2013 - 09:52 PM.

Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

Currently GMing a Dark Heresy 2.0 game and inflicting untold misery upon Martin Lockheed and company.


#11 Angel of Death

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:38 PM

Wait most people don't wear combat vest and have backpack for storage!!!


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 


#12 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

Wait most people don't wear combat vest and have backpack for storage!!!

 

I use the vest/backpack combo to explain their ability to carry all the random stuff they tote around in addition to their magazines, guns and grenades (spare boxes of ammunition, medkits, multitools, rations, auspex, plus whatever else they get into their grubby paws).  Also, Acolytes are definitely not Most People :D


Do not ask why you serve.  Only ask how.

 

Synonymous names include: Buried in Ferrets, Enveloped by Ermine.

Currently GMing a Dark Heresy 2.0 game and inflicting untold misery upon Martin Lockheed and company.


#13 Jargal

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:26 PM

Wait most people don't wear combat vest and have backpack for storage!!!

 

That's why in my current party guardsman, arbitrator and the assassin have different ammo/gear capacity.



#14 bojan

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

Any military load-bearing vest will carry 4+mags for rifle, couple of frag bombs and have place spare for "little things" (chem-lights, maps, pens, etc) . Any pistol holster usually has one or two places for spare mags.

Anyway, most militaries today consider 5-6 mags to be basic weapon for rifle. It is not unusual in war to carry 10+, especially when on patrol.

 

BTW, main problem with "loads of weapons" is not weight (anyone could carry 10 handguns, each being on average 1kg weight), but a bulk and where you can carry them.

 

For "civilian" uses, for pistol type weapons (stub automatics, laspistol, definitely not bolt pistols) I would allow as many mags as yo want up the 10 if you carry it as only weapon, but after first 2 mags double reload time...

 

Look also at a real-life mag sizes, up the 15 rounds pistol types are quite compact and you can easily carry 3-4 in pocket.

30+ rounders for rifles tend to be so-so but again, if you have basic load-bearing west (price it same as backpack in game) you can carry 5-6 w/o problem.

 

3 mags rule is kinda OK, but it heavily disadvantages low-capacity weapons (stub revolvers, hand cannons), while it favors some other (Combat shotgun, 18 rounds mag size...). I would say 5 for anything with mag capacity less then 10.


Edited by bojan, 01 February 2014 - 01:37 PM.


#15 Quoth

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:32 PM

we HAD a rule where a clip weighed the same as 10% of the weapons weight. This simplified weight really quickly but players who had smaller clip sizes spat their dummies out (had a guy with a 2 clip shotgun who was particularly miffed)
So now we just run with everyone can carry 3 clips (including one in the gun) and not worry about the weight but cant carry anymore. Life is quiet once more.


Edited by Quoth, 01 February 2014 - 04:43 PM.


#16 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 02:42 AM

Is 3 magazines low for asoldier when the magazines in question are lasgun charge packs? They have a lot of shots and can be recharged.



#17 bojan

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:36 AM

When IRL change came from 20 to 30 rounders for M16 during Vietnam number of mags issued per soldier did not decrease, only total amount of ammo carried increased. Also British issued 5 x 20 rounds mags for older L1 rifle (FN-FAL - that is real life Armageddon pattern autogun :D ), while they issue 6 x 30 rounders for L85...

 

Big appeal of lasgun is that a soldier can easily carry double or triple load of autogun ammo, not that he can carry same amount of ammo for less weight (soldiering ain't for weak  :) ).

Anyway, 3 (~180 shots) is definitely low for soldier cause ATM soldiers in Afghanistan are carrying 8+ (240+ rounds).

I would say that reasonable load for a soldier would be 5+ mags (300+ shots), giving him quite an independence from a logistics.

 

OFC, if he is carrying all those mags then none will have any mistake that he is military personal (or high-class mercenary), so forget about any undercover work (except in Guard :D ).

 

Also concealed carry, what you can carry inside spring clothes and remain reasonably unnoticed (no casual observer would notice):

15-rounds 9mm pistol (that is stub-automatic with extended mag in 40k terms) with 3 reserve mags (60 rounds total) in shoulder holster.

6-9 rounds backup compact pistol (compact stub automatic) with 1-2 reserve mags in belt or leg holster.

 

You can not realistically carry autopistols hidden (based on weight they are sized about same as Ingram MAC-10/11 which looks like was inspiration for 40k autopistol) except under trench-coats, but you can easily carry 4-6 mags (mags are usually 15-30 rounds) for it.

 

So IMO, rather by 3 mags, set fixed number of shots for undercover carry (under trench-coat, this is 40K after all :) ), say 60-90 for most stub automatics/autopistols etc, 30-40 for hand cannons. Those are broken down in mags, so 5-shot hand cannon  would carry let's say 6 mags, 13 shot stub-automatic about 5, while extended 30 shot mag autopistol would carry 3. Much more realistic, and does not make it that complicated.

For laspistol, I would say allow 4-5 reserve mags, but it is largely irrelevant as none is going to use even one full.

For shotguns, since their ammo is quite bulky and limit it to 10-15 reserve shells, or one full reserve mag if it is more.

Threat bolt weapons as shotguns, as they are about same caliber (.75" - 19mm, common 12g shotgun is 18.5mm)

For drum-mags (combat and Vanaheim shotguns and few other, I would say no concealed carry of even mags, as drum mags are notoriously bulky and PITA to carry. Plus some of those allow ammo to rattle making any attempt to sneak a parody. For those allow carry of loose ammo up the one reserve mag value, which will make reload PITA (~3 rounds), so next time player will take more suitable undercover weapon.


Edited by bojan, 02 February 2014 - 06:37 AM.


#18 Quoth

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:57 AM

Well, if its got a lot of shots and can be recharged, then no its not low =P
My party ATM is in an Urban environment so they are always within reach of restocking

#19 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 11:36 PM

If ammunition is more valuable than the Guardsman, why are you giving him a lot of it? :)



#20 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:42 AM

A guardsman is certainly more valuable than a Necromunda ganger, and those gangers are waist-deep in dakka. I'm sure the Emperor can spare some ammo for His warriors. Guardsmen are actually fairly well equipped, considering their numbers; the REALLY expendable ones would be the PDF, the Conscripts, or the Penal Legionnaires.


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 04 February 2014 - 12:50 AM.

"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."





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