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#1 BrotharTearer

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 01:06 PM

So, I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion regarding the Pyromancy Powers out of Tome of Fate. What do people actually think of them? Have anyone ever actually bought/used any of them? Thought of using them?

 

From my point of view, the Fire Bolt/Barrage/Storm powers are extremely underpowered compared to the other Bolt/Barrage/Storm powers available (the Force ones are probably best to compare with, but Doom Bolt works too).

 

The boons of the Fire ones are that they've Free Actions and only got Attack as subtypes, meaning you can use another psychic power with the Concentration subtype in the same turn (and perhaps even moving if the power was a half action), as well as being able to set something alight with enough successes (not that fancy, but I suppose some might like it). The drawbacks are the severe lack of damage as the scaling is horrendous (1d10+PR only), higher costs (Fire Storm is 500 xp, Force Storm is 350) and that you need a fire source nearby. The Manifest Flame power is a sustainable, which means you'll be taking a hit to your PR if you sustain anything else at the same time (which is very often the case). Carrying around a torch to get around that doesn't seem too flavourful.

 

Incinerate is an interesting power for sustained damage, but will most likely never come into play where it'd be more useful than any other power (if you have time to stare at a vehicle for 5+ turns you're probably dead before that or can do something more productive). It's also expensive as hell at 750 xp.

 

Molten Man is a stupid power, as you have no way of carrying equipment. I can't see anyone outside crazy NPCs using this.

 

To me, it just seems like it's an underwhelming discipline of powers that are more fit for NPCs than PCs.

 

Perhaps someone has implemented house rules in their game to make them more attractive choices?


Edited by BrotharTearer, 28 July 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#2 Vandegraffe

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:57 AM

I suspect the house rules may involve nerfing the force abilities as they are way overpowered.   Force storm has been known to kill a Great Unclean One in one round.

 

Rules as written, yes, you're correct.  There is no reason to take pyromancy except for 'rule of cool', as there are much more cost-effective choices out there. 

 

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#3 htsmithium

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:54 PM

well if your party has a person( or minion) with a flamer that can help a great deal as you don't have to sustain manifest flame. granted this is highly situational, but just a thought. other than that they do seem under powered.


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#4 BrianDavion

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:37 PM

I have this mental image of a pyromancer like Pyro from Marvel comic's x-men....



#5 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:33 AM

Pyromancy can set things on fire and so has the potential to destroy whole cities.



#6 BrotharTearer

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:03 PM

Pyromancy can set things on fire and so has the potential to destroy whole cities.

 

By that reasoning so can a hand flamer.



#7 Morangias

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:59 PM

 

Pyromancy can set things on fire and so has the potential to destroy whole cities.

 

By that reasoning so can a hand flamer.

Or a matchstick.


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#8 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 07:47 AM

 

Pyromancy can set things on fire and so has the potential to destroy whole cities.

 

By that reasoning so can a hand flamer.

 

 

Yes. I'm not seeing an objection.

 

Pyromancy is the psychic equivalent of flame weapons. Pyromancy and hand flamers are much more potentially destructive than telekinesis or heavy bolters.



#9 BrotharTearer

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:51 PM

 

 

Pyromancy can set things on fire and so has the potential to destroy whole cities.

 

By that reasoning so can a hand flamer.

 

 

Yes. I'm not seeing an objection.

 

Pyromancy is the psychic equivalent of flame weapons. Pyromancy and hand flamers are much more potentially destructive than telekinesis or heavy bolters.

 

 

Except flamers have a much larger damage and target potential. Especially compared to the investment.

 

And if we're going with arbitary narrative crap, Telekinesis can bring down buildings and Telepathy can make a planet's population go insane.


Edited by BrotharTearer, 16 August 2013 - 10:52 PM.


#10 Quietus1

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

Honestly, having gotten the tome of fate, I would say one is better off converting the pyro powers from Dark Heresy and using those (plus if you like the ones in Acension).



#11 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 02:34 AM

one is better off converting the pyro powers from Dark Heresy and using those

Molten Man pretty much is a straight read-across, I think.

 

It's not a bad power for a rogue psyker, as they tend to have naff-all equipment anyway (just had anything critical over to a minion before yelling 'flame on!'...)

 

The Burning Apocalypse ascension powers are really quite disconcerting (as are most of the ascension powers) - be really sure you want to put these in.

 

In terms of really devastating powers (on a city-destroying scale), consider allowing access to the Storm Warden's Hammer of the Emperor psychic nuke thing from Deathwatch. That's already written for a WP test/Psy Rating format rather than the Dark Heresy Overbleed system, and genuinely can collapse a small town!



#12 Cifer

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:16 AM

I'm not that sure about them sucking.

Firstly, the Open Flame requirement is pretty much a no-brainer - just take a hint from the Imperium's faithful and attach some kind of brazier to your character's equipment. Manifest Flame provides a backup there and you can even manifest the flame in the same turn as you throw it and still have a full action left to for example move into cover.

Secondly, forget the damage: The real bonus is setting your targets ablaze, which you can achieve with degrees of success rather than extra psy rating - and it's even equally simple for all fire powers, as the necessary DoS drop at the same rate as the difficulty of the power increases. Compare that to the force powers that only make the targets prone, something a T1 talent can negate in an instant. Who cares if my enemy dies right now crushed to a pulp or spends a few rounds running around like a human torch before collapsing nearly as certainly?

 

Regarding the comparison with a flamer: The heavy flamer has a range of 30 metres, with the smaller variants measuring 20 or 10. A psyker with a PR4 can already reach out to 60m and it only goes up from there.



#13 Athanatosz

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:40 PM

Tech & Arcane  arguments are a classy one... is a flamer better than a fireball?  mass production& easy to use and teach Versus always at hand and technically never run out of ammo...

 

Considering that pyro is good because it can be used like anytime if you invest in other powers too character become very adaptive to any situation...so if fire is needed you can always pull it out from your "pocket". Also worth to mention is that hordes are extremely vulnerable to fire  (in theory a starting psyker character with a psy rating of 3 and armed with a fire bolt can hit a squad of troopers  5+1d5  times with 1d10+3 E damage  compare it to a Doombolt 1d10+3 E Pen: 8  Counting it on medicore rolls d10=5 d5=3 it is 64 E damage against 8E with Pen 8 [if right about the rules]) /Counting it onward after T bonus (3) and armor (3) it is 58 damage for fire bolt magnitude is dropped by 3 and one guy is barely alive VS 5 damage so you successfully   attract some attention towards you.... 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Athanatosz, 06 October 2013 - 02:53 PM.

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#14 BrotharTearer

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:09 PM

Revisiting this, I'd actually just advise anyone looking at Pyromancy to use the Pyromancy discipline found in the Only War book. There you have a better and more interesting assortment of powers, and no need to sustain an open flame power (sustain slots are rather precious).


Edited by BrotharTearer, 07 October 2013 - 11:09 PM.


#15 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:42 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I just realized that most of the Pyromancy powers are Free Actions.



#16 Cifer

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:00 PM

@bogi_khaosa

It was mentioned in the very first post. But yes, it's neat. ;)



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:53 PM

whoops :(



#18 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

 

And if we're going with arbitary narrative crap, Telekinesis can bring down buildings and Telepathy can make a planet's population go insane.

 

 

No they can't.

 

The Pyro powers, as written, can start immense fires. Because that is what fire does, spread and stuff. Hey look at that big dry forest over there.

 

The TK and Telepathy powers, as written, cannot bring down buildings* and make a planet's population insane. (I'm not sure they can drive a single person insane, unless there is some power in Tome of Fate that does Permanent Int damage or whatnot.)

 

*unless you're a highly competent engineer and find some pivotal cornerstone, I suppose.

 

Anyway as pointed out the main combat benefit is obviously the Flame quality, which is quite capable of taking an opponent out of a combat indefinitely.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 28 October 2013 - 08:19 PM.


#19 Fgdsfg

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:18 AM

 

 

And if we're going with arbitary narrative crap, Telekinesis can bring down buildings and Telepathy can make a planet's population go insane.

 

 

No they can't.

 

The Pyro powers, as written, can start immense fires. Because that is what fire does, spread and stuff. Hey look at that big dry forest over there.

 

The TK and Telepathy powers, as written, cannot bring down buildings* and make a planet's population insane. (I'm not sure they can drive a single person insane, unless there is some power in Tome of Fate that does Permanent Int damage or whatnot.)

 

*unless you're a highly competent engineer and find some pivotal cornerstone, I suppose.

 

Anyway as pointed out the main combat benefit is obviously the Flame quality, which is quite capable of taking an opponent out of a combat indefinitely.

 

I want to chime in and point out that going narrative, saying "The fire spreads to the forest!" is completely comparable to going narrative and say "You pull out a support pillar and the building begins to crumble as the floorings begin to creak loudly".

 

"The fire spreads" because "That's what fires do" is entirely narrative, and in the narrative context of 40k, Telepathy can definitely drive planets insane and Telekinesis can definitely flatten buildings. I'll admit that the latter two is way more uncertain and requires way more in terms of stepping away from the rules as written (relative power level and whatnot; a first-year scholastia psykana student can probably create fire, whereas driving a planet insane is likely impossible for anything short of an Alpha+).

The pyro powers, as written, can't spread at all. I could potentially throw a crate full of Inferno Grenades into an office and it won't even spread to the next room unless the GM narrates it as such.


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#20 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:22 AM

 

 

 

And if we're going with arbitary narrative crap, Telekinesis can bring down buildings and Telepathy can make a planet's population go insane.

 

 

No they can't.

 

The Pyro powers, as written, can start immense fires. Because that is what fire does, spread and stuff. Hey look at that big dry forest over there.

 

The TK and Telepathy powers, as written, cannot bring down buildings* and make a planet's population insane. (I'm not sure they can drive a single person insane, unless there is some power in Tome of Fate that does Permanent Int damage or whatnot.)

 

*unless you're a highly competent engineer and find some pivotal cornerstone, I suppose.

 

Anyway as pointed out the main combat benefit is obviously the Flame quality, which is quite capable of taking an opponent out of a combat indefinitely.

 

I want to chime in and point out that going narrative, saying "The fire spreads to the forest!" is completely comparable to going narrative and say "You pull out a support pillar and the building begins to crumble as the floorings begin to creak loudly".

 

"The fire spreads" because "That's what fires do" is entirely narrative, and in the narrative context of 40k, Telepathy can definitely drive planets insane and Telekinesis can definitely flatten buildings. I'll admit that the latter two is way more uncertain and requires way more in terms of stepping away from the rules as written (relative power level and whatnot; a first-year scholastia psykana student can probably create fire, whereas driving a planet insane is likely impossible for anything short of an Alpha+).

The pyro powers, as written, can't spread at all. I could potentially throw a crate full of Inferno Grenades into an office and it won't even spread to the next room unless the GM narrates it as such.

 

 

OK, they are narrative in the sense that there are no explicit rules for firing spreading. Similarly there are no explicitly rules for gunshots putting holes in clothing or for dead bodies decomposing, or for loud noises interfering with Hearing Perception Tests. However this is what fire and gunshots and loud noises do, and a GM who does not have them do such things is a little wonky.

 

Psykers driving whole planets insane is a thing in 40K fluff yes but it is impossible game-mechanically (and there ARE definite rules for this, sort of) because it would take a huge psy rating far beyond what anything in the game has. Similarly, TK actually CAN flatten buildings via the magic of force barrage, but if we are talking about lifting, the absolute maximum weight that can be lifted psychically in BC is Psy Rating 10 Unbound Psyker Pushing with Child of the Warp, Blasphemous Incantation, and a max roll on Warp Conduit = 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 5 = 22 = 10 = 220 kg.

 

Anyway, if a PC says "I want to toss some flame (whether psychic or natural) into that bale of dry hay over there next to the dry wooden house" I as a GM am going to give the fire a good chance of spreading to the house. I am not going to let a PC say "I use Compel to make the population kill itself," because that would be stupid. :)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 October 2013 - 04:24 AM.





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