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#1 Masri

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

Hey I have a quick question, about something I read on this forum about OL relicts:

 

I'm sure I read in the rules that an OL relict has to be equipped by a lieutenant and that every lieutenant can only carry one relict.
I've read in the forum that Staff of shadows and bones of wo are always in game (+ the relict on the lieutenant), is that correct?
Also can a lieutenant carry more than one relict? I've read that in the final the baron is stronger the more he has eqquiped.

 

 



#2 Kunzite

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

Bones of Woe and Staff of shadows are "equipped" to you, so to say. They work for you all of the time.

 

Zackerith can only have one think equipped to him at a time as well, because he's LT. LT can only have one relic attached to them at a time, as you said.


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#3 Masri

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:25 AM

Thanks.

 

That makes SoS and BoW the best relics imo (maby exept for the final mission)



#4 Kunzite

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:47 AM

Yes. In my experience, they are. Very good! Out of all the relics, those are the ones I would go for!


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#5 Sibaweh

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:07 AM

Are you sure about this? The rules are fairly clear that relics can only be used if they are equipped to Lieutenants. If there is a specific exception for Staff of Shadows and Bones of Woe, could you please cite the source ?

 

See this BGG thread:http://boardgamegeek...ipping-question


Edited by Sibaweh, 25 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#6 Kunzite

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

Oh wow. I just reread the ruling on that! I'm sorry, Masari, I lied! Apparently you do need a LT to hold bones of woe or staff of shadows for the relic to be used. That significantly diminishes the value of those relics. Bones of Woe are invaluable when you can use them. Staff of Shadows with Bones as a combo is insane! But I am seeing here you need two LT in order to make this work. I am guessing this is why there are so many LT in the final. The OL can then use any relics obtained in the campaign.


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#7 Masri

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:20 AM

Yeah thats how i understood the relic rule first, anyway makes sence haven BoW and SoS + a 3rd relic all in one quest with only one LT.....that would be a little overpowered^^



#8 DeeJay507

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:20 AM

Yea, I was probably the source of this misinterpretation. I'm sorry. I always thought Bones of Woe and Staff of Shadows don't have to be equipped to lieutenants, but this is not true. 

 

Also after first defeat of the lieutenant in the ENTIRE QUEST it seems that you can no longer use the relic to the end of that quest. 



#9 RagsMckay

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

Also after first defeat of the lieutenant in the ENTIRE QUEST it seems that you can no longer use the relic to the end of that quest. 

 

This is one I will house rule. If the Lt can be reinforced or can be stood up again in that guest, they should be able to use the relic just like a hero. Or if the hero players prefer we could rule it as if the hero is defeated that hero also losses the relic for the remainder of the quest.

 

I can understand if the Lt is defeated and cannot come back then yes the relic should be out of play. Otherwise I feel this favors the heroes too much.

 

Oh yeah the official rule is on page 22.

If a lieutenant wielding a relic is defeated during a quest, the abilities of that relic are ignored for the remainder of the quest but the overlord keeps the relic.


Edited by RagsMckay, 26 July 2013 - 08:13 AM.

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#10 Robin

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:28 AM

Wouldn't the rule simply lead the OL to be carefull not to expose his lieutenants too recklessly ?

I think it is all about risk calculation.

The fact that the rules are quite specific that a defeated lieutenant, even if coming back during the quest, may not use a relic again, seems to show a clear intention from the part of the designers.


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#11 RagsMckay

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:50 AM

I understand your point Robin, but I don't feel that just because a designers intent was there or not, doesn't mean a rulling is good. Take Castle Dareon for example. Clear intent, but rules on the second encounter are just bad and were changed by the designer. The designers do change things from their original intent if the realize that it can break the game or cause an unfair balance issue.

 

To me it just makes the LT a huge target. If the OL holds the LT back to keep a relic available, then the LT has very limited functionality. It just seems strange to me that a hero can have a relic with no penalty for defeating the Hero who has the relic, but a Lt then losses the relic if defeated. My thought is it should be the same for both sides, whether thats keeping a relic or lossing the relic doesn't matter to me as long as it is the same for both side.

 

I don't just play as the OL all the time, in fact, I mostly have played heroes most of the time, but still would like to keep the game as balanced as possible. I am not a huge advocate for House rulling either, but when our group feels it is needed, then we will make a house rule and tweak it as necessary to keep the balance.


Edited by RagsMckay, 26 July 2013 - 08:52 AM.

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#12 Sibaweh

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:59 AM

The fact that the rules are quite specific that a defeated lieutenant, even if coming back during the quest, may not use a relic again, seems to show a clear intention from the part of the designers.

 

I actually don't think that this is all that clear from the rules. The rules don't specify that the relic is gone *even if the Lieutenant comes back* - it just says that is is gone from the quest if the lieutenant is defeated. It seems a fair interpretation of the rules to me that a "defeated but reinforced" lieutenant is not "defeated" for the purposes of this rule. As such, while you couldn't use the relic's abilities when the lieutenant is not in the game, once he comes back, he could still be wielding that relic.

 

This really only plays in scenarios where the Lieutenant is reinforced - The Shadow Rune interlude "The Shadow Vault" comes to mind. 

 

Thoughts?



#13 RagsMckay

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:17 AM

Although I like what you are saying Sibaweh the rules are quite clear when defining a defeated figure. You will find this on page 15

 

 
Defeated
When a hero or monster suffers damage equal to or greater than its Health, it is defeated.

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#14 Kunzite

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

I am in part to blame. We played with the SoS and BoW out all of the time. It was a crazy good combo. I didn't read the rules correctly. The tid-bit on relics is all the way at the end of the rules and I am sure I was tired of reading by the time I got there.

 

Anyways, I feel that if the heroes get to keep their relics equipped in the second encounter then the reinforced LT should as well. They are re-entering the quest, yes? It would make relic reaping rather useless otherwise.

 

Can the relics be re-equipped or then equipped to another LT that is reinforced later? I say this in regards to one of the finals in LoR. Reinforcements are any LT that you have on hand that hasn't been defeated already. That would include Zackerith. Soooo.... can the relics be equipped to them?


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#15 Husker949

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:11 AM

To be honest, the way it is worded doesn't really matter about LT's losing the use of a relic after being dropped. The reasoning behind that is that in Act 1 there are so few quests that the LT is active in both encounters of the quest. In my experience, the LT only showed up in both encounters of Cardinal's Plight, and Masquerade Ball. In the Cardinal's Plight, the LT only shows up after the Cardinal's door is opened in the second encounter so there is a chance that you wouldn't even worry about losing the ability to use the other relics. I don't have the books in front of be because I am at work, but there are only even, what like 4 relics available in Act 1? If I recall also, there are quite a few quests that are a victory for the heroes if the LT is killed, so it also renders the point about reequiping the relic moot. In terms of thematic flair, the LT could also have "dropped" the relic when he was defeated and one of his minions grabbed it off the ground before he was returned to the field and he just doesn't have the time to take it back from his minion to use it again.



#16 Sibaweh

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:15 AM

Anyways, I feel that if the heroes get to keep their relics equipped in the second encounter then the reinforced LT should as well. They are re-entering the quest, yes? It would make relic reaping rather useless otherwise.

 

Yes, this.

 

Can the relics be re-equipped or then equipped to another LT that is reinforced later? I say this in regards to one of the finals in LoR. Reinforcements are any LT that you have on hand that hasn't been defeated already. That would include Zackerith. Soooo.... can the relics be equipped to them?

 

On this one though I disagree. IIRC, the rules do seem to make something of a big deal about equipping relics to specific LTs. That would imply that you couldn't switch-equip.


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#17 RagsMckay

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:23 AM

Can the relics be re-equipped or then equipped to another LT that is reinforced later? I say this in regards to one of the finals in LoR. Reinforcements are any LT that you have on hand that hasn't been defeated already. That would include Zackerith. Soooo.... can the relics be equipped to them?

 

I would also say that a relic that came in with one Lt could not come back in with another Lt. I would, however allow for a Lt with no relic equipped be allowed to have a relic traded to them within an encounter during a move action by one of the Lts. Granted these senario's would only come into play in the finalies at this point.


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#18 Kunzite

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:53 PM

That seems like a fair trade off. After all, if a hero is defeated, the other heroes can't "loot the body," though >} I really wish my monsters could. Oh, the things I could do with a health potion or a cursed doll. Mostly for steeling their gold. *nodnod*


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#19 Robin

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

Hey, about ol' relics: I just learned that Mick Jaeger was 70 today.  :P


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