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How do we feel about the Standard/Semi/Full attack bonuses, really?


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#61 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:41 PM

 

 

 

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous. 

 

From Online Dictionary: 

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.
b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

 

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

 

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

 

The guns are not realistic of course.  

 

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons. 

 

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested. 

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

 

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

 

 

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

 

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me ;)

 

 

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok. 

 

 

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is. 

 

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely). 

 

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy. 

 

Yeah I share your concern with Single shot but think about most of the weapons that are single are either accurate (Long Las, Sniper Rifle) have a special quality (Shotguns that Scatter allowing for more hits in close range) or last resort weapons with low capacity (Stub Revolver, Black Powder, hand crossbow) 

 

So from a strictly reload aspect low capacity weapons and single shot are almost necessary. Compare three pistols, Stub Revolver, Stub Automatic, Autopistol; the revolver can fire two bullets in 1 round with +10 each, the Stub Auto can fire 6 bullets in a round on SA, and the Autopistol can fire 12 bullets in a round on FA.

 

With both the Stub Auto and Autopistol you have three half actions worth of prolonged fire, (hell I just realized that with the ammo capacity the Autogun on FA you only have three half actions worth of prolonged fire) where as the revolver has six half actions of prolonged fire with a +10 to hit. Now obviously all of the pistols have the single option but this just serves as an example of how easy it is to burn through ammo on the other modes before you have to reload, assuming you have the requisite ammunition to reload... if you only have three reloads for each weapon Single is significantly more economical.

 

Luckily most of the weapons that use FA are high capacity Heavy weapons without Single as an option.

 

Despite only being a half action, you cannot by the normal rules repeat that action in the same round. So one only shot with SS, 3 with SA and max 10 with FA. 

 

If SS mode could be done twice it would give it a serious power bost, as most cannot dodge the second shot. If you do the same with SA and FA they just become much better too, and dodge wouldn't be that good until you get Step Aside etc. 



#62 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:22 PM

 

 

 

 

There is nothing in the book saying Semi-Automatic Burst represents pulling the trigger several times. In fact the words are contradictory as a burst is generally not semi-automatic - a burst is usually something continuous. 

 

From Online Dictionary: 

a. The number of bullets fired from an automatic weapon by one pull of the trigger.
b. A volley of bullets fired from an automatic weapon: The machine gunner fired a quick burst.

 

Semi-automatic is however defined as you say, with each squeeze firing one round - which is why 2 single shots could be as much semi-automatic as this weird 3-round burst.

 

I'm not sure if the writers of the book know what they are talking about at all - Why are some guns that you would think were semi-automatic only have single shot mode? Why is the combat shotgun defined as automatic, while it can only fire semi-auto, not full auto? Why can't the pump shotgun fire more than one shot per round if it is a pump shotgun?

 

The guns are not realistic of course.  

 

Now if you would just have +10% for full auto with no chance of extra shots landing, why at all would you use that compared to single shot? That's why I offered a potential way to do it. It's not over complicated, there are 2 different versions of full auto and 2 of semi auto. I suppose you could eliminate the short wide burst for simplicity as you might as well go for autofire, but that was mainly to give an option to those using SA-only weapons. 

 

Removing that it's no more complicated than what you suggested. 

Haha! good point on the wide burst, I was so focused on being right that mistake went right over my head my bad man. maybe the difference would simply be degrees of success required for extra hits... I reckon that would make the most sense... so basically the wide burst we've been discussing would combine the best parts of all firing options but not overpowering it. It would have the +10 from single shot, the two degrees of success per extra hit of Semi-auto, and the prohibitive ammo cost of Full auto.

 

Also, I noticed that with the lasgun barrage talent and the fluid action weapons customization you are guaranteed an extra hit when using Semi-auto burst... just food for thought.

 

 

Well that's more like it. It does make a wide burst from Autofire be superior to SA fire in all situations where ammo conservation is not a priority though. I'm guessing short version would be unchanged, as in -10% and one hit per DoS?

 

Still, it would allow say an ork to blaze away and in most chances have a slim chance of landing 2 hits (9%) and ok chance of landing one. Since ammo conservation and calculating odds have never been a strong side of orks, that seems just fine to me ;)

 

 

BTW I just noticed a typo I made in my own suggestion for long wide burst, I meant to have one extra hit per 2 DoS (otherwise it would be OP DH rule!), so this is pretty close. Reducing it to +10 and keeping SA as it is might just be ok. 

 

 

I would consider why SA is inherently less accurate than FA burst (less chance to land multiple shots), but with these talents you mention it's suddenly easy to land all 3 shots, so maybe just leave it as is. 

 

I will try to suggest this simplified version to my players, and see if they can live with it at least (they can simply not use it of course). It makes being shot at by multiple goons with Autoguns more dangerous (less likely to miss completely). 

 

One potential issue is that this makes Single Shot less useful again - ammo conservation is the only benefit from it with these house rules, while with normal rules it always had an Edge with accuracy. 

 

Yeah I share your concern with Single shot but think about most of the weapons that are single are either accurate (Long Las, Sniper Rifle) have a special quality (Shotguns that Scatter allowing for more hits in close range) or last resort weapons with low capacity (Stub Revolver, Black Powder, hand crossbow) 

 

So from a strictly reload aspect low capacity weapons and single shot are almost necessary. Compare three pistols, Stub Revolver, Stub Automatic, Autopistol; the revolver can fire two bullets in 1 round with +10 each, the Stub Auto can fire 6 bullets in a round on SA, and the Autopistol can fire 12 bullets in a round on FA.

 

With both the Stub Auto and Autopistol you have three half actions worth of prolonged fire, (hell I just realized that with the ammo capacity the Autogun on FA you only have three half actions worth of prolonged fire) where as the revolver has six half actions of prolonged fire with a +10 to hit. Now obviously all of the pistols have the single option but this just serves as an example of how easy it is to burn through ammo on the other modes before you have to reload, assuming you have the requisite ammunition to reload... if you only have three reloads for each weapon Single is significantly more economical.

 

Luckily most of the weapons that use FA are high capacity Heavy weapons without Single as an option.

 

Despite only being a half action, you cannot by the normal rules repeat that action in the same round. So one only shot with SS, 3 with SA and max 10 with FA. 

 

If SS mode could be done twice it would give it a serious power bost, as most cannot dodge the second shot. If you do the same with SA and FA they just become much better too, and dodge wouldn't be that good until you get Step Aside etc. 

 

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.


Edited by Magpie Stoner, 05 August 2013 - 02:26 PM.


#63 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:46 PM

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.

 

 

 

The main reason is, thats the rules. You cannot take two Attack subtype actions in the same round. Apparently you have a house rule you didn't even know about, or at least don't expect everyone else to do the same. 

 

I personally wouldn't mind allowing more shots fired, as the current numbers are low compared to the time of a round. However, it makes it even more important to win initiative as someone can shoot you twice before you have time to get to cover, and it makes the melee Swift Attack talents less useful as instead of trying to get several DoS to land an extra blow you could just strike twice with +10 - quite a difference. 

 

Probably more balanced to keep it as it is IMHO. 



#64 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 06:23 PM

 

Eh, in my games I see absolutely no reason to disallow you to conduct follow up shots with additional half actions... Specifically so my players can actually go through an entire lasgun powerpack... 60 shots is alot when you're only poppin off three shots a round and I feel that having to actually reload your weapon adds to the combat experience, there's a lot more reloading in real life than there is in this game I can tell you that much. Plus I think people mistakenly rely on dodge more than utilizing actual cover, and seeking cover would be more appealing if you can hunker down and just shoot instead of hunker down and shoot once then have a wasted half action... Basically I just dictate that a followup shot consists of firing at the same target with their second half action, in my mind they wouldn't have a whole lot of time to pick another target.

 

 

 

The main reason is, thats the rules. You cannot take two Attack subtype actions in the same round. Apparently you have a house rule you didn't even know about, or at least don't expect everyone else to do the same. 

 

I personally wouldn't mind allowing more shots fired, as the current numbers are low compared to the time of a round. However, it makes it even more important to win initiative as someone can shoot you twice before you have time to get to cover, and it makes the melee Swift Attack talents less useful as instead of trying to get several DoS to land an extra blow you could just strike twice with +10 - quite a difference. 

 

Probably more balanced to keep it as it is IMHO. 

 

Like I said, followup shots... it's a lot easier to pull the trigger once more than it is to rear back and swing a melee weapon a second time. As for things being "the rules" luckily I do not have a FFG representative in the room ensuring I adhere strictly to the rules so I use them as guidelines... I prefer to stick with common sense rather than as the rules are read because as has been discussed in these forums some things just don't make a god damn lick of sense, plus that has offered players multiple opportunities to think outside the box; they tell me what they want to do no matter how ridiculous it seems and I try to see how the rules can support that action, and if there isn't one immediately available then I just make whatever call I think makes the most sense realistically... sometimes these "house rules" are completely contextually based, whereas if they weren't in the specific situation then they wouldn't get the circumstance/Cojones bonus... I think if a GM were to just read straight from the book without any personal interpretation it becomes very wooden and boring... that's just me and my guys though, the game should be played however people have fun, I guess even if that is a rigid adherence to the rules for a group.



#65 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:28 AM

The other half-action is used to Aim. It's not wasted.



#66 Night10194

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:59 PM

I liked the changes to the firing rules well enough to make them retroactive to all the other 40k RPGs. I find they tend to work quite well, with particularly excellent characters still able to land plenty of shots with full auto but having the make a decision between speed of fire and accuracy, now. I'm not all that concerned about their realism so much as the fact that they work well for gameplay, which they do.



#67 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:45 PM

The other half-action is used to Aim. It's not wasted.

Well I guess using aim as well as making a guarded attack would more or less even out the penalties while maximizing cover.



#68 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 04:08 AM

There's a bunch of stuff you can do with that half-action. Aim, Guarded Action, duck back entirely behind cover...



#69 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:56 PM

Speaking strictly from the viewpoint of rule mechanics (maybe even rule balance), what if...

 

Single Shot- Half Action, +10 (indicating a careful pacing of preparing to take the shot and pulling the trigger; it is, after all, an "ordinary" [+10] Action)

Semi-Auto- Half Action, +/-0 (representing it being more "difficult" to resist muzzle rise) [One could look at the difference between a Single Shot and Semi-Auto being a Difficult BS Test, hence the -10 difference.]

Full Auto- Full Action, +20 (due to the volume of shots put downrange), but always treated as Suppressing Fire, -20, for a total modifier of +/-0? For those that want to cite examples of "experienced shooters" being better shots with Full Auto weaponry, I say that becomes the domain of a specialized Talent. Orks in Rogue Trader have one (Give Em More Dakka), reducing their Full Auto to a Half Action, which then allows them to Suppress their targets, maybe hit someone (they do have low BS), and continue to close with their enemy (Half Action Move).

 

Honestly, what is the difference between someone shooting a rattling hail of Full Auto at a target, or shooting a rattling hail of Full Auto at a target with the intention of Suppressing? None, really, other than intention. But your target shouldn't ever be able to make that distinction. All the target knows is that there are a lot of shots coming their way, and they might get hit, and they need to duck into cover, and quickly (the Pinning Test associated with being on the receiving end of Suppressing Fire, giving Will Power more relevance in a standard combat encounter).

 

The only mechanical difference then between Semi-Auto and Full Auto is the Action time (Full as opposed to Half). Well that, and the ammo expenditure.

 

Now I think about it, I may just go this route and absorb the Suppressing Fire Action directly into the Full Auto Action. I've already House Ruled hit resolution of Full Auto fire as being 1 hit with 1 DoS, 2 hits with 2-3 DoS, 4 hits with 4-5 DoS, 6 hits with 6-7 DoS, and so on. I've also capped Target Numbers at 100 (actually less to account for weapon Jam, the Unreliable Quality, automatic misses), and we determine DoS/DoF a bit differently, so weapons with a Full Auto RoF 9-10 never get that 9th or 10th bullet to hit, but I consider that the equalizing consequence of high RoF ammo expenditure. Some bullets just don't hit anything. 


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 16 August 2013 - 09:57 PM.

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#70 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:56 AM

That I definitely agree with; I've never really understood suppressing fire being different from normal full auto fire; "someone with a machinegun is shooting at me" is the underlying reality; he's not exactly 'not aiming at you'. I get why this might be different if trying to suppress a big arc of targets - you're washing fire back and forth to suppress multiple opponents - but nine times out of ten, I tend to see one guy firing at one target.



#71 Angel of Death

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:58 PM

I have not yet used suppressing fire OW but have used it a # of times in DH to try to pin down enemy "squads"


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#72 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:11 AM

Oh, I get why it's good, just not why it's different from normal automatic fire.

 

That was one element I liked from way back when in Inquisitor; all shots were pinning - but you got a big Nerve bonus if it didn't actually hit you, unless you were under fire from a weapon on full auto.



#73 Morangias

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

Oh, I get why it's good, just not why it's different from normal automatic fire.

 

That was one element I liked from way back when in Inquisitor; all shots were pinning - but you got a big Nerve bonus if it didn't actually hit you, unless you were under fire from a weapon on full auto.

It's mostly a matter of not bogging down gameplay horribly, methinks.


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#74 Radwraith

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:01 PM

This thread sort of confuses me in parts. The difference between "Autofire" modes is essentially, Single target or suppression fire. To hit a specific target with a fully automatic weapon IRL is actually fairly difficult but, if you spray rounds downrange everyone in that direction will run for cover! Again, IRL suppressive fire rarely hits much of any thing! I actually used to be on the side of the "old" system but a poster on this forum pointed out the design philosophy and I find I now like the new system. The only place I feel it breaks down is in vehicle combat. Vehicle weapon mounts (Other than pintel  mounts) are not really affected by recoils so much as they are by stabilization and fire control systems. I personally feel that vehicle weapons should have a modifier similar to Rogue Trader's Detection bonus on Starships. Generically I would use the following: Combat vehicles (Tanks and Combat aircraft) +10. Transport vehicles (APC's with mounted weapons) +0 And non-combat vehicles or Pintel mounted weapons would use the rules for personal weapons. 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.






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