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Story not resolving


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#1 .Zephyr.

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 05:20 AM

FAQ says:

Stories will resolve only if the active player has characters at that story.

 

When is this condition checked? If you commit:
Harry Houdini

Action: Pay 1 to remove Harry Houdini from a story he is committed to. Then, ready him.

 

Then opponent commits, then you use his ability. Does the story resolve? (No?)

 

If your characters are gone because of T or C struggles does story stop resolving and there is no A or I struggle? (No?)

 

If you play guys like:
Jiang Shi

Disrupt: Before you resolve a (T) struggle, pay 1 to commit Jiang Shi to that story without exhausting it. If Jiang Shi is already committed to another story, uncommit it.

 

To change story leaving no one behind before it was chosen to resolve, does the story resolve or not?

 

In short: when exactly is this condition checked?


Edited by .Zephyr., 20 July 2013 - 05:21 AM.


#2 HilariousPete

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:59 AM

FAQ says:

Stories will resolve only if the active player has characters at that story.

 

When is this condition checked? If you commit:
Harry Houdini

Action: Pay 1 to remove Harry Houdini from a story he is committed to. Then, ready him.

 

Then opponent commits, then you use his ability. Does the story resolve? (No?)

I think it does not resolve. After the opponent commits, Actions may be taken (and you resolve Houdini's effect). After that, there's the green box "Story resolution" (no Actions may be played). So the reasonable point to check this would be at the start of the green box on p. 13 of the Core set rulebook.

 

If your characters are gone because of T or C struggles does story stop resolving and there is no A or I struggle? (No?)

The story still continues. From the FAQ:

It is possible for a player to win an icon
struggle even when his opponent has
committed no characters

 

A story will "stop" and won't resolve if it is won in the meantime, though:

Additionally, if a story card is won
by any player before it is resolved
(i.e., at any point during the story
resolution sequence), all success tokens
are removed from the story, and all
characters are no longer committed to
that story. Any remaining steps of the
sequence are not resolved.

 

 

If you play guys like:

Jiang Shi

Disrupt: Before you resolve a (T) struggle, pay 1 to commit Jiang Shi to that story without exhausting it. If Jiang Shi is already committed to another story, uncommit it.

 

To change story leaving no one behind before it was chosen to resolve, does the story resolve or not?

That's difficult. Now there's no one left at the story at all.

While I'm pretty sure that the "no characters at stories"-check is made at the beginning of the story resolution, I don't know if it is continuously done during its resolution.

I'd guess the story continues and counts as considered resolved (usually with no results to the game, since neither played had any character at that story), but that's a guess. You need to ask someone else about this one... Although the answer to this question seldomly makes a difference. I can only imagine a combination with Expert Testimony or Inconspicuous Zoog to have any effect at all.


Edited by HilariousPete, 20 July 2013 - 10:01 AM.


#3 jhaelen

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:05 AM

Well, I don't think I can back it by quoting the rules, but I'm quite certain the check is made after both players have committed and finished playing actions. All stories that would resolve at this point will resolve.

 

Jiang Shi can only be used after you started resolving the story, so it will continue to be resolved as normal, even if there are no characters left. As Hilarious Pete already noted, usually without effect.



#4 .Zephyr.

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:04 PM

I'm not talking about leaving story with no characters. I'm talking about Active player commiting, defender commiting, then active player "running away".

Especially as defender can win I struggles or have abilities that trigger during struggles like Umr at-Tawil, so it might be important.

 

Like you know, i commit Jiang Shi, opponent commits Umr at-Tawil hoping to hurt my hand, i trigger Jiang Shi removing him from the story and going else ware. Is A still resolved?



#5 TheProfessor

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 07:39 PM

I think the key is that "Resolving a Story Card" (page 9 of rulebook) has 5 steps - the 4 icons struggles and success.  When the FAQ says "Stories will resolve only if..." I think it actually means that starting the resolution process only happens if...

 

So in your Jiang Shi example, it is my belief that the story will resolve because it must start resolving before Jiang Shi's ability kicks in.  The FAQ never tells us to stop resolving a story.

 

It is not crystal clear and unequivocal, but this is my interpretation.



#6 jhaelen

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:01 AM

That doesn't change anything. My answer stays the same. A story that does not have characters from the active player committed at the time the check is made will not resolve.

 

Jiang Shi is a different case because the story has already started to resolve, so it will finish being resolved, even if there are no characters (from the active player) left.

I mean, think about this for a second: What happens if the active player commits a single character and it becomes insane because the defending player wins the terror struggle? Of course the story continues to be resolved.

I'm not talking about leaving story with no characters. I'm talking about Active player commiting, defender commiting, then active player "running away".


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#7 TheProfessor

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:49 AM

I agree with jhaelen.  What is missing from the rules is a statement of when the "check" is made to see if a story should be resolved or not.  I believe the only check is made at the beginning of the story resolution step for each story.  There is nothing to suggest that an on-going check is made during the resolution of a story.



#8 .Zephyr.

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:57 PM

 

 at the time the check is made

There is no exact time to make this check specified, thats what i'm asking about...

 

About Jang Shi, so were on the same page

I have Jang Shi at story A

I have some guy at story B

I resolve story B first, trigger Jang Shi to go to story B. Story A haven't started resolving. Do i have to start resolving story A next (I dont have characters there now, but i had one at the begging of story resolution box)


Edited by .Zephyr., 29 July 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#9 jhaelen

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:48 AM

Dear Zephyr, no one here will be able to answer your question to your satisfaction. You will have to send the question to FFG / Damon.



#10 .Zephyr.

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

I'd have to ask Damon every 2-3 days or so. But i'm not playing in tournaments, I tend to write long posts and keep asking till i get a clear answer that shows some general mechanisms in a clear way. I don't think asking a designer makes that much point in this case. If he had a group of ruling experts i'd gladly ask them, but i'd prefer designer had more time to actually design, not solve all ruling problems... I really think there should be someone in the team, other than designer himself, who looks just at making rules more clear, making card text as simple as it can, and making rulings/erratas. The point about different person is quite key here, as designer knows what he designed, so for him rules seem clear, for some other person not so much. (Obviously he'd need to consult designer often.)

 

Also often my problems have already been cleared like Mummy+Necro thats in the FAQ and i missed it. So even if i intended to ask Damon id ask here first just to be sure i'm not reinventing the wheel.

 

Back to the topic:

 

About stopping story resolution - I also dont stop story once it starts resolving, unless it's won. I just want to make sure I haven't missed something and other ppl play like this as well.

 

I'm also asking is there any consensus on those weirder issues. What would you rule if you were a judge and i'd play this Jang Shi to prevent Umr at-Tawil ability from resolving as story where I had Jang Shi, but used his ability before this story started resolving.

Um at-Tawil triggers or not?

[to be clear, Jang shi is not triggered when his story resolves, Jang shi is triggered when the other story resolves, before his story started resolving; thats the point here; I think your answers missed that (or i missread them)]

 

PS

I'd give up, but i really hate quarreling about rules during play, and i really like the game

So im asking from time to time hoping that when i understand this games rules better i'll get less quarrels during actual play


Edited by .Zephyr., 30 July 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#11 TheProfessor

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

I'd rule that from my interpretation of the rule book, Resolving a Story has a single start point, and doesn't have an opportunity to stop.  So I would say the only check happens before anything is done at a story, and changes that occur during the resolution don't change whether or not to resolve.



#12 jhaelen

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:16 AM

I'm also asking is there any consensus on those weirder issues. What would you rule if you were a judge and i'd play this Jang Shi to prevent Umr at-Tawil ability from resolving as story where I had Jang Shi, but used his ability before this story started resolving.

Um at-Tawil triggers or not?

[to be clear, Jang shi is not triggered when his story resolves, Jang shi is triggered when the other story resolves, before his story started resolving; thats the point here; I think your answers missed that (or i missread them)]

I don't get what you are asking here. Are you the defending player? Then your opponent gets to choose in which order stories resolve, so you wouldn't even get an opportunity to use Jian Shi before the story where Umr at-Tawil is commited resolves.

If you are the active player and you don't have a character at the story where Umr at-Tawil is committed, you don't have to worry since the story will not be resolved.

 

And what is the importance of 'Umr at-Tawil' anyway? His ability is a response, so it doesn't interfere with story resolution at all.



#13 .Zephyr.

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:18 AM

I'm active player.

I commit Jian Shi to story A, I commit Victoria to story B.

Opponent blocks Jian Shi committing Umr at-Tawil to story A.

I choose to resolve story B first, during T struggle i use Jian shi ability to commit him to story B.

 

Now, do i have to resolve story A? I don't have characters there now, but i had Jian Shi at the begining of story resolution box.

Urm... says "Response: After Umr at-Tawil readies", if story will not resolve, he will not win A and will not ready and will not trigger. (and will stay exhausted)

 

I do not stop any story while it resolves... Is this clear?


Edited by .Zephyr., 01 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#14 jasonconlon

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:55 PM

We're told that "Stories will resolve only if the active player has characters at that story."
The question is: When is the determination point as to which stories will resolve? Is it:
i) Determined simultaneously for all stories at the start of the story resolution step?
ii) Determined per story when the story is selected to be resolved by the active player during the story resolution step?

I believe it's ii).

The core rules state "The active player now selects one story at a time to be resolved." which still leaves it up in the air, but hints to me that they're not just choosing the order but also the initiation point for resolution.

One other reason I think it's ii) though is the following FAQ entry:

If I have a Military Bike (Summons of the Deep F102) which reads: “... Disrupt: After a story to which attached character is committed resolves, exhaust Military Bike to immediately re-commit attached character to another unresolved story” and am the defending player, am I able to commit the attached character to an unresolved story where the attacker has not committed characters?
No, the defending player may not commit characters to stories where the attacking player has not committed characters to.


I believe this entry is specific to 'defending player' because as the active player you were able to ride your bike over to a story where there were no attackers or defenders to claim an easy unopposed victory - but for this to work, you had to be able to determine whether a story would resolve independently (i.e. as per ii)).

And I assume it was later that they added the following errata clarification to prevent this (and just forgot to remove the now-redundant FAQ question about it).

The Path to Y’ha-nthlei
Military Bike (F102)
Characters can only be re-committed by Military Bike to a unresolved story where there are already characters.


So in your example above, .Zephyr., I would say that after resolving Story B you can no longer choose Story A to resolve as there's no attackers when it's time to choose the next story for resolution.

Edited by jasonconlon, 01 August 2013 - 10:45 PM.


#15 jhaelen

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:04 AM

I do not stop any story while it resolves... Is this clear?

Okay, understood. I think, the decision if a story has to be resolved or not is made for each story individually at the time you would start resolving it, so I don't think story A in your example would be resolved. But I'm not entirely convinced of jasonconlon's argumentation and I cannot think of any rule to prove it, so you'll probably have to forward it to Damon.

Urm... says "Response: After Umr at-Tawil readies", if story will not resolve, he will not win A and will not ready and will not trigger. (and will stay exhausted)

Well, yes, but then it will trigger in your opponent's next Refresh phase, so you only postponed the effect a bit (and maybe dodged it once, since it can only be used once per turn).



#16 jasonconlon

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:48 PM

Here's Damon's response on the topic --
 

Q: A follow-up question in relation to resolving stories, as per your ruling at http://community.fan...st/#entry837721
When is "the time of story resolution" for a particular story, in terms of checking whether or not there is an active character at the story and therefore whether or not the story should resolve? Does the check occur for all stories simultaneously at the very start of the story resolution phase, or does the check occur for each story individually at the point when the active player nominates each story to be resolved? (E.g. Jiang Shi--"Disrupt: Before you resolve a [Terror] struggle, pay 1 to commit Jiang Shi to that story without exhausting it. If Jiang Shi is already committed to another story, uncommit it." If the active player committed one character to story #1 and Jiang Shi to story #2, then during the story phase chose to resolve story #1 first and triggered the ability to reassign Jiang Shi to story #1, would story #2 still resolve albeit without any active player characters there now?)

A: The active player chooses what story to resolve. He or she may only choose stories that they have a character at. Each story is not so much checked at a specific point as disallowed to be chosen by the active player when it is time for them to choose which story is to resolve next.


Edited by jasonconlon, 21 August 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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