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When did the space marines get ships?


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#21 crisaron

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:38 PM

Since only the Ultramarine actually follow the codex... ok Fist do too but the fortress they have goes agaisn't navy doctrine but since it was given top them by the emperor we will close an eye on it...

 

Basically every chapter that does not follow Codex as a fleet:

 

- Wolfs have refused the codex and by refusing they haven't been splited in chapters and still have a fleet for each great company.

 

- Black Templars alto a chapter, it is a fleet based chapter and the fact they range for and wide within the Empire, no one is sure on how many ship they have.

 

- Dark Angel have their own secret fleet for the 1st company action.

 

- Charadon and many other small secretive fleet based chapter, report shoes they have pirate captured ships and other refitted cpatured vessels.

 

- Iron Hands, would not be surprised many of those allied mechanicus ships are Iron Hand's own. Theire ties as always been seen as a way of getting out of the codex's rules.


Edited by crisaron, 05 September 2013 - 12:39 PM.


#22 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:32 AM

"Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword."

 

Do they actually ever call that a battle barge? Given its armament, it doesn't appear much more than a destroyer.

 

 

The astartes have always had their ships as far as I know. In rogue trader way back when, it was specifically the Imperial Army that didn't have its own ships (which has since become the post-heresy reforms taking them away).

 

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova-class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

 

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!)  whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

 

 

From Battlefleet Gothic Armada:

 

When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes
proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally
important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested
strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors.

Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.


Edited by Magnus Grendel, 06 September 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#23 herichimo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:18 PM

 

"Bloodquest: Battlebarges under chapter employ, one given to 'disgraced' captain and a single squad of blood angels to go hunt for a lost sword."

 

Do they actually ever call that a battle barge? Given its armament, it doesn't appear much more than a destroyer.

 

 

The astartes have always had their ships as far as I know. In rogue trader way back when, it was specifically the Imperial Army that didn't have its own ships (which has since become the post-heresy reforms taking them away).

 

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova-class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

 

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!)  whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

 

Yes, the ship the outcasts were given was called a battle barge. Didn't look anything like any of the BFG ships ever released though. Honestly it probably should have been an escort but we can't go back and change it now. I think the writer might simply have assumed all Astartes ships were called battle barges.

 

Try not to pidgeonhole Astartes ships. They were not built solely for planetary assaults, but they were significantly overbuilt to make it easier for the space marines to carry out that role. Astartes ships were built for all manner of fleet action. The Gladius and Nova for instance have no real value in any kind of boarding or planetary assault being crewed by, at most, a single squad of marines. The Glladius was used for patrols, pickets, and escort coverage for larger engagements. The Nova was a pure gunboat, but as Astartes choose to let the Navy, which has a larger number of ships, to carry out fleet engagements most of the time most chapters have very few of these ships.

 

Astartes ships, even the battle barge, were actually universally faster than the standard imperial ships of the line. A typical Imperial Battleship moved only 15cm while the Space Marine battle barge could move 20cm. The mass of the ship made the battle barge, like almost all battleships, slow to maneuver though. Astartes strike cruisers moved 5cm faster than imperial cruisers and their escorts moved up to 10cm! faster than the imperial versions. Speed was a weapon, and advantage, space marines frequently used against their opponents.

 

The reason the Navy gets in a tizz about the Nova is due to their (the navy's) idea of the balance of power. Outside of any chapter specific official treaties with the navy, there is no real rules preventing a chapter from using as many Novas or other vessels they want. Practical limitations play a larger part in chapter fleet sizes, rather. A chapter just cannot muster enough serfs, or Astartes to crew a large fleet. Plus the resources to fuel and stock such ships would put a strain on their trade and support treaties with the imperium and ad mech (which you can think of as limiters for an Astartes fleet). No forge world will want to send half its output to one chapter just because they, "want a big ole fleet that doesn't do anything."

 

All that said, I believe many chapters, especially the first founding, have mothballed assets. Ships (and other vehicles) held in storage and not on any officially recognized roster, which they can recommision when the need arises. More recent foundings are more likely not to have such resources though.



#24 Blood Pact

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

As noted, an astartes battle barge is tougher and more heavily armed than an imperial navy battleship. It's also slower, less manouvreable and its weapons are less well suited for ship-to-ship engagements - which is right because the chapter fleets aren't supposed to be for naval engagements, they're supposed to be for planetary assaults. The Nova-class frigate - which carries a lance (the imperium's primary antiship energy weapon) causes serious tensions with the navy because it's quite clearly a ship designed for a role the astartes aren't supposed to be capable of.

 

In a broadside-to-broadside fight, astartes ships will tear a navy ship of the same displacement apart, but for a battle barge to catch a navy battleship isn't easy as the latter is more agile (and that's saying something given that these things are armoured fortresses ~ ten kilometres long!)  whilst a strike cruiser is only light cruiser sized and a navy line cruiser or battlecruiser still outmasses it in a straight fight.

 

 

From Battlefleet Gothic Armada:

 

When Gulliman set about the long and arduous task of preparing Codex Astartes, the role of space vessels amongst the Adeptus Astartes proved a particular sticking. For an Imperium still reeling from internecine Heresy that almost tore it apart, the division of power was a vitally important consideration. Of the most extreme options on offer, it was ventured by some that the Space Marines should be denied any vessels at all, barring intra-system transports for movement between homeworlds and attendant moons. Corax, amongst others, protested strongly that in fact had the Space Marines been better equipped with fleets of their own his own Legion might not have been so horrendously decimated when trapped on Istvaan V by Horus and the newly revealed traitors. Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper. Inevitably, the wrangling over interpretation of a ship’s ‘primary role’ leads to some chapters possessing rather more versatile fleets than the Imperial Navy is entirely comfortable with.

 

 

 

Except Battle Barges aren't slower or less maneuverable. You're the only one saying that, and there's nothing to back you up. The picture that Lynata put up last just page proved that. This link proves that. Your own quote hardly backs you up, saying, "There was a whole bunch of political wrangling, and everyone just dis/obeys the edict to some degree or another anyway."

 

http://www.games-wor...rial_Fleets.pdf

 

And http://www.games-wor...thic_Sector.pdf

 

 

Battle Barges are faster than some of Battleship classes that the Navy has, while no Grand Cruisers or Battlecruisers are faster than it (ie: they're the same speed).

 

They're actually slightly less defended, with weaker shields and point defences, but they make up for it being heavily armoured all around. And their weapons lack range but not punch in the least. See Grendel, the thing about planetary assaults is that all to often any planet worth assaulting is going to have at least one, and more likely a combination of the 3 main types of anti-starship defences. Ground based, orbital based, and other ships. So while the Space Marines starships are supposed to focus on ground assaults and other support roles for the actual Marines, they still actually need to fight other ships, and be good at it, to perform their primary role.

 

Also, what isn't included in all those raw stats, is that Space Marine fleets also get bonuses toward hit and run attacks, boarding actions, and planetary assaults. And their attack craft (Thunderhawks) only have a 50/50 chance of being removed after attacking ordnance or other attack craft. So yeah.

 

 

And here's the thing about the Strike Cruiser. Sure it only has 6 hitpoints and 1 shield, but compared to any Light Cruiser in a one on one slug-match, it's going to burn them from stem to stern, no matter the circumstances. While almost every full Navy cruiser is going to limp away from a fight with one, if it walks away at all. Since at that point, we must remember that not only is it just as well armed in some cases, or close to it, but also faster and more maneuverable. And balancing out the deficiency in shields, more or less, is the 6+ armour on all sides (broadside being the important one).

 

I'd give the Strike Cruiser even chances against any of them.


Edited by Blood Pact, 07 September 2013 - 09:39 AM.


#25 Shockwave

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:33 AM

The strike cruiser would have a decent chance against most light cruisers (And a couple of Standard cruisers), though strangely the original pattern Dauntless is the one most likely to cripple it, though a lot of players preferred the Torpedo version.



#26 Blood Pact

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 02:34 PM

The strike cruiser would have a decent chance against most light cruisers (And a couple of Standard cruisers), though strangely the original pattern Dauntless is the one most likely to cripple it, though a lot of players preferred the Torpedo version.

 

 

More than a decent chance by my estimation. Because, while obviously there are point disparities with every combination, the Strike Cruiser being 15-35 points more than any of the Light Cruisers... But any way you look at it, it is a straight advantage for the Strike Cruiser.

 

So remembering that no ship as a weapon range longer than 30cm, and that Shields and Turrets are equal in all cases except the Dauntless, with its Turrets of 1, here's the exact Breakdown for armaments compared against Light Cruisers...

 

The 145 point Strike Cruiser possesses broadside Batteries of 4 on each side, its prow Bombardment Cannon (equal to, and arguably better, than a Lance) of 3, and a Launch Bay that can supply 2 Thunderhawk squads at once.

 

The 130 point Defiant class has prow Lances of 2, and two Launch Bays totaling 2. It's clearly outclassed in firepower.

 

The (120) Endurance has Lance broadsides of 2 each, and a prow Battery of 2, with 2 Torpedo tubes also on the prow. Not bad, but still can't hit as hard as the Strike Cruiser.

 

The (120) Endeavor is in competition with the Dauntless as the closest in firepower. With Batteries of 6 on each broadside, another Battery on the prow for 2, and rounded out with 2 Torpedos. But close isn't enough.

 

Lastly the (110) Dauntless provides the most punch at the cheapest package of all the Light Cruisers. With port and starboard Batteries of 4, equal to the Strike Cruiser, and prow Lances of 3. But without any launch bays or additional armament, it still comes up short.

 

 

Rounding off all this is the reminder that in every case except the Dauntless the Strike Cruiser is 5cm faster, and of the 5 ships listed above it has 6+ armour instead of 5+ on all sides. And being a Space marine vessel, it also averages +1 Leadership over the Imperial Navy.

 

So while the point values don't match up in any of the above cases, the other math proves that the Strike Cruiser outclasses all of the Navy's Light Cruisers. Why I also say it's no easy fight for any of the Navy's full cruisers (at which point the smallest point gap is about 35 above the Strike Cruiser).

 

(note: dice are random as hell of course, but when doing these little theoretical exercises, I always assume everything comes out perfect average. That is, of the 2 Thunderhawks a Strike Cruiser can launch, one of them will always pass the 4+ roll to stay. If 18 spare marines are shooting at something, I assume 12 shots hit, 6 wound against T4, and only 2 armour rolls fail.)






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