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Lair of the Wyrm & Rumor Cards


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#1 any2cards

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

I must be having a bad day today, resulting in me being especially dense ...

 

Within the rule guide for Lair of the Wyrm, it specifies that right before the start of a new Campaign, the OL draws 3 rumor cards for the entire Campaign.

 

It then says that they can only be played by the OL during the "campaign phase", at the specified time on the rumor card, and that at most one Rumor card can be played during each Campaign Phase.

 

What?  Huh?

 

I looked at all 6 Rumor cards.

 

3 say to play at the start of a campaign phase during Act I.

1 says to play it at the start of a Travel step of any Act I campaign phase.

1 says to play it at the end of a Travel step of any Act I campaign phase.

1 says to play it at the start of the Shopping step of any Act of the campaign phase.

 

Ok, I guess the last 3 are pretty clear.

 

For the first one, what the hell constitutes the start of a campaign phase during Act I?

 

Can someone explain to this incredibly dense individual, exactly what the eff this means?



#2 tadkil

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

DA RULES SAY: 

The Campaign Phase
After each quest of a campaign, there is a Campaign phase during which 
players may make decisions on how to upgrade their heroes and prepare 
for the next quest. It is important to note that most quests have two 
encounters and the Campaign phase does not take place until the entire 
quest is finished. During the Campaign phase, all players may spend 
experience points to enhance their abilities. Also, the heroes may visit 
the shop in Arhynn to purchase new equipment. The following steps are 
performed during each Campaign phase.
1. Receive gold from Search Cards: Record the total gold value of 
every Search card the heroes acquired over the course of this quest 
on the Campaign sheet (even if the Search card was used during the 
quest). Then return all Search cards to the deck (even if the heroes 
didn’t use their abilities). The heroes are assumed to sell their newly 
discovered treasures in Arhynn. 
2. Cleanup: All heroes recover all damage and all fatigue. The overlord 
combines his draw and discard pile into one deck. All Condition cards 
are discarded, all effects end, the map is disassembled, and the quest is 
generally cleaned up as the players prepare for the next one. 
3. Receive Rewards: The overlord player and hero players each receive 
one experience point, regardless of who won the quest (as listed in the 
Quest Guide). Record this on the Campaign sheet. The winner of the 
quest receives additional rewards as noted in the Quest Guide. 
4. Spend Experience Points: Players may spend any experience points 
they have earned at this time. Experience points are spent on new 
skills for heroes and new Overlord cards for the overlord.
5. Shopping: Hero players may spend any gold they have acquired to 
purchase new Shop Item cards (see “Shopping” on page 20).
6. Choose Next Quest: The winner of the quest chooses which quest, 
from those available, will be played next (see “Choose Next Quest” on 
page 21).
7. Set Up Quest: The players begin setting up the next quest following 
the standard rules for setting up a quest. The overlord player should 
remember to shuffle his Overlord deck, including any new cards just 
purchased, to create a new deck before drawing his starting hand.
8. Travel: Heroes travel to the next quest location

 

Seems to me 3 of the rumor cards have to be played before the players get their gold.  



#3 any2cards

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:20 PM

Okay, that is pretty much what I was thinking.  I am glad at least one other person see's it the same way.  Thanks for your input.



#4 tadkil

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

No prob dude.  I had to go back and reread it myself.  Great avatar! :)



#5 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

I have a question regarding Rumors too. All 3 of the Rumor Quests instruct you to discard that card if any of the other two quests has been played and draw a new Rumor card. So is that discarding from your hand? Or does it also mean from the table in case there was more than one of the Act I Rumor Quests available?



#6 fscx

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

I have a question regarding Rumors too. All 3 of the Rumor Quests instruct you to discard that card if any of the other two quests has been played and draw a new Rumor card. So is that discarding from your hand? Or does it also mean from the table in case there was more than one of the Act I Rumor Quests available?

No, since you can only play One of the three quest to the table.  If you say had all three of the Act 1 Quest rumors in your hand and Play one of them. In this case you would discard the two cards because the rumor is played once you reveal it.



#7 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

Hmmmm.... So I see we've made different interpretations regarding what "If you have played "xxxxx" or "xxxxx" discard this card and draw a new Rumor card" means. I thought it meant the quests; you've interpreted it means the cards. I didn't really consider it before, but it is confusing indeed. I think my interpretation comes partly from things like the last paragraph in page 7 of the LotW rulebook: "If one or more Act I Quest cards are still in play immediately before playing the Interlude, the heroes must choose one of them to attempt...". It would lead me to think that more than one of the LotW Rumor Quest Cards could be on the table at the same time. Could it just be there in order to consider Rumor Cards from future expansions?

 

Also the idea of discarding from the table seems supported by "Quest cards remain in play until completed or discarded by a game effect."(Also page 7, under the "Rumor Card Breakdown" box)



#8 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:10 PM

Also, if you interpret it refers to the cards it could lead to the following situation: At the start of the Campaign the OL draws one of the Rumor Quests, the card "A Dangerous Path" and another one of the Rumor Cards which isn't a quest. He/She plays the Rumor Quest to the table, say it's "Gold Digger". Players play the quest, get the rewards and discard the Rumor Quest Card. After that the OL plays "A Dangerous Path" which allows him/her to draw another Rumor Card. Say he draws "What's Your Is Mine". Now, this quest has the exact same rewards as "Gold Digger". Even if they didn't have the same rewards (any other combination of two quests) it could happen that the heroes win one of the quests and the OL wins the other one and then you get both Advanced Quest Cards on the table, which I don't think is intended. Of course, you could always interpret "If you have played..." as "If you have ever played during this Campaign...", it would be reasonable.



#9 centralx

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 06:35 AM

You can't do two act one rumor quests, you can only do one. First looking at the wording it says, "If you have played .." When you draw that next card you should immediately discard it and draw another card. You have met the requirement because "You have played" one of the named cards already and draw another. If you deal yourself a few fake hands and play them out you will see that this deck is designed to almost draw through it. As far as I can tell unless you don't draw dangerous path, that card is the only one you have a risk in not seeing since only two cards will not let you draw once the quest is triggered when utilizing the rumor cards. It should be noted that is with just the Wyrm expansion since we have no idea how Trolfens will do their rumor cards. 

 

With that in mind you can see the mechanics of playing with Lair of the Wyrm alongside the campaign. The way it is set up is you play one brief one encounter scenario during Act 1 that gives out a decent item. Then that quest leads to a finale Act 2 quest involving 2 encounters with a sweet prize for the victor.



#10 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

You have met the requirement because "You have played" one of the named cards already and draw another.

 

Yes, that's what I meant with:

 

Of course, you could always interpret "If you have played..." as "If you have ever played during this Campaign...", it would be reasonable.

 

I agree that you're not intended to do two Act I Rumor Quest, but I think you could have a choice, based on:

 

...last paragraph in page 7 of the LotW rulebook: "If one or more Act I Quest cards are still in play immediately before playing the Interlude, the heroes must choose one of them to attempt...".

 

It all depends on whether it refers to the cards or the quests when it says "If you have played..." (please note that the quests have the same name as the cards). Or should it say "If you have completed..." if it where referring to the quests? I don't know. What's then the point of the clarification I just quoted form page 7? Preparing for The Trollfens? Why not put it there then?



#11 centralx

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

My experience is when looking beyond the simple you are probably playing it wrong. First there is the golden rule that says do what the card says. This I would think would overrule your interpretation. When following the rumor cards with just the Wyrm expansion in play it is not possible to have more than one. 

 

To me the simple answer is the small expansions are the only sets getting rumor cards. Trolfens is going to be the next set to introduce more rumor cards. Based on LotW rumor card instructions those rumor cards will be added into one pile. Assuming this to be correct this is what would create a situation with more than 1 act 1 quest card in play.

 

Now to answer why specifically they wouldn't wait is because one day Trolfens and LotW will be out at the same time so the manuals will need to match at that point. I would argue they are just getting ahead of that synchronicity

while sort of previewing to other Descent players what to expect as they expand this mechanic. Probably also want people to understand you can play all of these expansions at the same time. 

 

I don't think it should say "If you have completed ..." because that will create more complications for the mechanic. Let's pretend that they did say that then it would open the door to multiple act 1 quests in play and on the table. Then hypothetically once completed then they would  come out of play and you draw a rumor card. This strange give and take that this would create is all the more reason that the text of "When played" is a perfect fit given the mechanic we both agree on that the game reaches for.  

 

That is my two cents. I love the rumor cards and can't wait for more. 



#12 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:59 AM

First there is the golden rule that says do what the card says.

The point here is that it is not clear to me what the card says (what it refers to: quests or cards). I'm not trying to go beyond the "simple" interpretation; to me the most natural thing was to think that it referred to the quests.

 

Now to answer why specifically they wouldn't wait is because one day Trolfens and LotW will be out at the same time so the manuals will need to match at that point. I would argue they are just getting ahead of that synchronicity

while sort of previewing to other Descent players what to expect as they expand this mechanic. Probably also want people to understand you can play all of these expansions at the same time. 

 

If you rule this in all but one of the expansions it would still work.

 

I appreciate your two cents, and I think you're probably right. It's just not so straightforwardly obvious to me. Maybe I should just ask FFG, though it's not such a big deal.



#13 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

Ok. I've asked FFG. Will let you know.



#14 centralx

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:08 AM

Cool please do. Any excuse to talk more about Descent is always welcome with me. 



#15 Aidyzappiar

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:34 AM

Alright, just got this from Justin. You were right, it refers to the cards ;) .

 

Q: Rumor Quest Cards in Lair of the Wyrm say "If you have played xxxxx or yyyyy discard this card and draw a new Rumor Card". Is that referring to the cards xxxxx and yyyyy or the quests that have the same names? Could there be more than one Act I Rumor Quest Card on the table at any point? (players would choose one at some point before Interlude as per the rules and discard the other ones after completing the quest)

Thanks!

 

A: Your first question is just a little unclear to me; essentially, if the overlord plays a Rumor card with a quest on it, if he has any of the other Rumor cards with quests from that expansion, he discards them and draws new ones.

 
And yes, it will be (when Trollfens is released) entirely possible to have multiple Rumor cards (with quests) in play, but it would be 1 from each expansion. 

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

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#16 Kunzite

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 06:41 AM

well, if anything, it conferms Trollfens is more rumors. Woot!! Thanks, Aidyzappiar!


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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