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Neural Katana vs 3 Net shields


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#1 Bluedice

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:04 AM

Scenario 1

 

You encountered Neural katana.

You can't break NK's subroutine.

You got 3 net shields.

This is the first time you will take net damage.

You got 5 credits.

 

Question:

 

Can you prevent the whole 3 net damage due to net shield as a first net damage?

If not the full 3 net damage, How much can you prevent?

 

Scenario 2

You encountered woodcutter w/ 3 advancement

You can't break woodcutter's subroutines.

You got 3 net shield.

This is the first time you will take net damage.

You got 5 credits.

 

Question:

 

Can you prevent the whole 3 net damage due to net shield as a first net damage?

If not the full 3 net damage, How much can you prevent?

 

This is what I understand...

Neural Katana vs 3 Net shield = 0 net damage

 

Because 3 net damage from neural katana is still first net damage. therefore, can prevent all 3.

 

woodcutter w/ 3 advancement vs 3 net shield = 2 net damage

 

Because you have to deal 1 net damage per subroutine. you can only prevent 1 net damage, nulls the rest of net shield that turn.

 

Is this correct?


Edited by Bluedice, 09 July 2013 - 11:06 AM.


#2 AlienII

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:34 AM

first net damage is the the key. the remaining Net shields you have installed would no longer work because the first net damage has been... activated or met not sure the correct term. Having additional Net shields would not help you. 



#3 Bluedice

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:48 AM

So your saying that the NK example will be wrong and woodcutter is correct?

even 3 net damage is the first net damege?



#4 Saturnine

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

From the FAQ:

 

How much damage does Net Shield prevent?
Net Shield prevents a single point of net damage. It does not prevent all net damage from a single source.


#5 Bluedice

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:24 PM

 

From the FAQ:

 

How much damage does Net Shield prevent?
Net Shield prevents a single point of net damage. It does not prevent all net damage from a single source.

 

Thanks for providing this fact!

 

I knew about this fact. but my question remains regarding scenario #1

 

You got 3 net shields and dealt with Neural katana (3 Net damage). 

 

My thoughts about it. It can be prevented. "because the whole 3 net damage is a single source at one time." you activate 3 net shields because all three met it's conditional ability. You did not prevent them one by one. it's all at the same time. You use 3 net shields at the same time as a response for NK's only subroutine

 

However in Scenario #2

 

Woodcutter w/ 3 advancement provides a 3 subroutine w/ do 1 net damage per subroutine. makes net shield prevent only 1 net damage & take the rest of the subroutines one by one.

 

It's clear to me that net shield can only prevent 1 net damage at one source at one time!

 

Is this correct? Please help me because I'm checking w/ the rule book and the faq from FFG.


Edited by Bluedice, 09 July 2013 - 03:25 PM.


#6 radiskull

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:52 PM

 

 

From the FAQ:

 

How much damage does Net Shield prevent?
Net Shield prevents a single point of net damage. It does not prevent all net damage from a single source.

 

 

My thoughts about it. It can be prevented. "because the whole 3 net damage is a single source at one time." you activate 3 net shields because all three met it's conditional ability. You did not prevent them one by one. it's all at the same time. You use 3 net shields at the same time as a response for NK's only subroutine

The FAQ explicitly says that this is not the correct answer.  A single Net Shield prevents a single point of damage.  More than one Net Shield installed at the same time is useless.



#7 nungunz

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:06 PM

radiskull is correct.

 

If you have 3 netshields out and you get hit by Neural Katanna, you can prevent 1 damage (and take 2).

 

If you get hit by 3 Neural Emps you can prevent the first damage (and take two).  If you don't prevent the first Neural EMP, you can't prevent any of the others as they are not the "first" net damage (IE, you take 3 damage)

 

If you get hit by a snare, you can prevent 1 damage (and take 2).

 

If you get hit by a loaded junebug you prevent 1 damage (and take the rest).

 

 

 

There is absolutely no point to install more than one net shield at a time......same goes for Muresh Bodysuit.



#8 Bluedice

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:48 PM

Faq:

Q:How much does net shield prevent?

A: Net shield prevents a single point of net damage. it does not prevent all net damage from a single source.

 

Net shield:

Prevent the first net damage this turn

 

We are talking about 3 net shields vs (1) NK's subroutine!

We are not talking about a single net shield just like the fact mentioned.

The fact does not site how many net shields we are dealing with.

 

When NK's subroutine triggers, the (3) net shields met the requirement that it can prevent a single net damage this turn. (not one source) 

 

scenario #1

3 neural katana = 1 Net shield + 1 net shield + 1 net shield

because its the first single source of net damage w/ 3 points of net damage

therefore it can be prevented at the same time but only once per turn.

 

scenario #2

1 woodcutter + 1 woodcutter +1 woodcutter ≠ 1 net shield + 1 net shield + 1 net shield

because it has 3 subroutines that deals 1 net damage each.

you can only prevent 1 net damage since a subroutine will trigger one by one.

 

the only time a net shield will be useless if net damage was dealt w/ multiple source. just like scenario #2

 

please confirm this FFG!



#9 radiskull

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Only one point of damage is the "first net damage this turn".



#10 nungunz

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:08 PM

 

scenario #1

3 neural katana = 1 Net shield + 1 net shield + 1 net shield

because its the first single source of net damage w/ 3 points of net damage

therefore it can be prevented at the same time but only once per turn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Runner can use netshield to prevent the first damage and will take 2 damage.

 


 

scenario #2

1 woodcutter + 1 woodcutter +1 woodcutter ≠ 1 net shield + 1 net shield + 1 net shield

because it has 3 subroutines that deals 1 net damage each.

you can only prevent 1 net damage since a subroutine will trigger one by one.

 

 

 

 

The runner can use netshield to prevent the first net damage and will take 2 damage

 

The applies all three cases of:

1) --  3 woodcutters with one advancement token

2) --  1 woodcutter with one advancement token, 1 woodcutter with 2 advancement tokens

3) --  1 woodcutter with 3 advancement tokens

 

 

Netshield only ever can prevent up to 1 net damage whether it is from 1 source or an infinite number of sources and no matter how much damage it does.


Edited by nungunz, 09 July 2013 - 11:08 PM.


#11 Bluedice

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:19 AM

Scenario #1

How do you deal net damage from neural katana?

A) discard them one by one

B) choose 3 and discard at the same time

 

Scenario #2

how do you deal net damage from woodcutter w/ 3 advancement?

A) discard them one by one.

B) choose 3 and discard at the same time.

 

My answer:

 scenario #1 = B

 scenario #2 = A

 

If we arrive w/ the same answer from scenario #1, therefore we can prevent NK's subroutine w/ 3 net shields because it was dealt at the same time. Is there a timing rule that if you are hit by 3 net damage you can only prevent 1 because it disable the rest of net shield? you are using net shield at the same time!

 

In scenario #2 It's clear that you can only prevent a single net damage because woodcutter's subroutine will trigger one by one.

 

The faq gave by FFG regarding net shield is that the card itself is broad.

Net shield: Prevent the first net damage this turn.

Thus they clear this by saying. prevents a single point of net damage. it does not prevent the whole net damage from a single source

 

Imagine this, you add a token for each net shields indicating that its not used.

In scenario #1 you remove all those tokens and prevent 3 net damage at the same time

In scenario #2 you remove all those tokens to prevent 1 net damage. then take the other 2 net damage one by one.

 

I need timing rule in preventing damage so it can be cleared.



#12 Bluedice

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:39 AM

From the rule book:

 

   Prevent and Avoid

     Some card abilities use the words "prevent" or "avoid". Prevent or avoid effects are the only effects which can disrupt another effect. A prevent or avoid effect states what it is preventing or avoiding, and the effect that is prevented or avoided  is not resolved. prevent and avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing is resolving.

 

  Subroutines

     Subroutines are abilities of a piece of ice marked by the (arrow) symbol. if the runner encounters a piece of rezzed ice and does not or cannot break its subroutines, the unbroken subroutines trigger and resolve one by one.

 

Thus, I believe 3 net shields can prevent all Nk's 3 net damage because it was resolving at the same time and not one by one.

 

Please add this to faqs or pls answer me w/ an official ruling!


Edited by Bluedice, 10 July 2013 - 01:08 AM.


#13 AlexFrost

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:53 AM

No, you are preventing 3 times the same single point of damage. The FIRST point of damage



#14 Bluedice

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:47 AM

You actually prevent 1 net damage per net shield. because it occur at the same time. having a total of 3 net damage prevented.

 

Unlike woodcutter example. Has 3 subroutine that triggers one by one. therefore can only prevent 1 net damage total. it nulls the other 2 net shield upon applying the first subroutine or the first net damage. prevent and avoid effects can be triggered whenever the effect they are preventing is resolving.

 

You are saying that whenever a net shield will prevent the first net damage can only be used. but you got 3 net shield that met the condition at the same time. where in the rule book that you are preventing the damage one by one?

 

Neural katana can be prevented by these conditions.

Woodcutter's subroutines can only be prevented once.



#15 Bluedice

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:54 AM

Like you are eating your first pie. You are eating a pie, not taking a bite.


Edited by Bluedice, 10 July 2013 - 04:55 AM.


#16 stormwolf27

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:56 AM

however, if you stuff said pie into your mouth, all at the same time, it may take 20 bites, but your napkin prevents the first bite you take out of each pie. You have 20 napkins, how many bites do you take.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#17 Saturnine

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:17 AM

Rulebook, page 20:

"The Runner randomly trashes one card from his grip for each point of net damage done to him."

"When the Runner trashes multiple cards for damage, the cards are placed in his heap in the order they were randomly trashed."

 

From this we see that damage is applied one card at a time, even if multiple points of damage occur from one effect. Net Shield can only prevent the first net damage per turn, and there can be only one first net damage in a turn -- the one that would trash the first card.


Edited by Saturnine, 10 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.


#18 Bluedice

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:18 PM

I'm happy that you note that from the rule book. but it was never mentioned that is one at a time.

 

"when the runner trashes multiple cards for damage, the cards are placed in his heap in the order they were randomly trashed"

 

"Neural katana damage"

 

You don't discard a card one at a time. you discard 3 cards at the same time.

 

The corp player picks 3 cards at random then the runner discard those cards in order they were pick by the corp player.

 

so going back to scenario #1 the damage was dealt at the same time.

 

Please guys help me on this. It works exactly like this unless proven w/ facts.



#19 stormwolf27

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:53 PM

I'm happy that you note that from the rule book. but it was never mentioned that is one at a time.
 
"when the runner trashes multiple cards for damage, the cards are placed in his heap in the order they were randomly trashed"
 
"Neural katana damage"
 
You don't discard a card one at a time. you discard 3 cards at the same time.
 
The corp player picks 3 cards at random then the runner discard those cards in order they were pick by the corp player.
 
so going back to scenario #1 the damage was dealt at the same time.
 
Please guys help me on this. It works exactly like this unless proven w/ facts.


What is so difficult about "the first point of net damage?" Honestly... Whether it is dealt at the same time or one at a time, 3 copies of a card that all say "prevent the first net damage..." Does not mean they, together, prevent any more than the first net damage.

If they each said "1 [recurring credit]: use this credit to prevent one point of net damage," then your argument would hold water. As the card is worded, it doesn't matter how many different ways you try to justify it, it doesn't work.

I usually hate bringing examples over from another game, but here's an example from AGoT:

River Blockade reads:
"Cancel the first location effect triggered by an opponent each round."

If you have 3 of these out, it doesn't prevent 3 location triggers, even if they could be done at the same time. It says to prevent the first one. Period. End of story.

"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#20 nungunz

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:56 PM

Look, you're one of the very few people that are still trying to push this reasoning.  If you won't listen to us, send a question here:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...om/edge_faq.asp

 

 

Lukas (the guy who does the netrunner rulings) is as official an answer you'll get.


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