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Slicer talent tree clarification


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#1 aljovin

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:59 PM

I am building an NPC that should be a slicer, however, I'm not sure how to interpret the talent tree:
The first row and second row both have the same 3 talents ( grit, technical aptitude and bypass security), so I don't need to pick up the 5xp version first? I could pay the more expensive 10xp version, then the 5xp one? For Grit and Bypass Security, I understand that you may want both levels, but Technical Ability, does it stack up to 50% less time?

#2 BrashFink

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

Nope. You cannot buy any skill unless it is attached to another starting from the top.

 

However, if you bought it twice in a row (15 total) you would get the stacked ability. All the skills that are on the list twice, are stackable talents. I do not have my copy of Core Rules yet (Coming Monday) and my Beta book is in the other room...  but each Talent description has a list of what it does... it will say something like "+1 Strain to each level of Grit"


Edited by BrashFink, 05 July 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#3 BrashFink

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:29 PM

Hmm, I went to look at my Beta book. We have yet to have made a slicer, and if the talent tree is like the one in the Beta book... yeah it is confusing. I do not have a "post-it tab" on that page either (which would indicate a rule change).

 

It weirdly looks like you have to go down the left side to get anywhere else... Wonder if there is anything in the old beta forums.


Edited by BrashFink, 05 July 2013 - 10:30 PM.


#4 Rikoshi

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:35 PM

Hmm, I went to look at my Beta book. We have yet to have made a slicer, and if the talent tree is like the one in the Beta book... yeah it is confusing. I do not have a "post-it tab" on that page either (which would indicate a rule change).

 

It weirdly looks like you have to go down the left side to get anywhere else... Wonder if there is anything in the old beta forums.

 

My impression of the Slicer talent tree is that the left-hand column contains all of the 'core' slicing abilities, with a smattering of good bonuses along the top for a mere 5xp a pop.

 

I think the idea of it is that, to be a competent slicer, those first four talents on the far left form the "fundamentals" for what you need to do the job, and the rest comes later, cheaper, with practice.



#5 Rikoshi

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:37 PM

I am building an NPC that should be a slicer, however, I'm not sure how to interpret the talent tree:
The first row and second row both have the same 3 talents ( grit, technical aptitude and bypass security), so I don't need to pick up the 5xp version first? I could pay the more expensive 10xp version, then the 5xp one? For Grit and Bypass Security, I understand that you may want both levels, but Technical Ability, does it stack up to 50% less time?

 

You don't NEED the 5xp version first if you don't purchase it (though since it's so cheap, you'll probably pick it up before you get the 10xp version, since there's a lot of tree-climbing to get there).

 

And yes, the numbers do indeed stack for a combined total of 50%, as per page 145 of the core rulebook.



#6 BrashFink

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:40 PM

Yeah I was wondering that Also. But... usually the next Stacking ones are like 5 or 6 in deep. All of these are like 9-10 deep. Kind of weird.



#7 Rikoshi

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

Yeah I was wondering that Also. But... usually the next Stacking ones are like 5 or 6 in deep. All of these are like 9-10 deep. Kind of weird.

 

The Slicer tree is definitely the "odd man out" in that regard, compared to the other talent trees.

 

I'm guessing the reason for that is that, with other specializations, there are multiple 'flavors' you can have, whereas slicer is much more of a focused route. But that's just supposition on my part.



#8 BrashFink

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:52 PM

Yeah I think I am in agreement with you. I mean... that seems what the random 5xp ones are there for also, so you have other stuff for a bit while you hammer the main left side.

 

I looked through the beta forums... not really finding anything. These new forums missing search or something? Or am i just not seeing it?

 

EDIT: (smacks forehead)... ALL the way at the top.  Sheez! what is it doing all the way up there?


Edited by BrashFink, 05 July 2013 - 10:53 PM.


#9 BrashFink

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:58 PM

Some brief discussions about it HERE from last fall, but nothing much else.



#10 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:55 AM

I am building an NPC that should be a slicer, however, I'm not sure how to interpret the talent tree:
The first row and second row both have the same 3 talents ( grit, technical aptitude and bypass security), so I don't need to pick up the 5xp version first? I could pay the more expensive 10xp version, then the 5xp one? For Grit and Bypass Security, I understand that you may want both levels, but Technical Ability, does it stack up to 50% less time?

As for building an NPC, you don't need to follow the talent trees at all.  Simply select a couple of talents that would apply (I wouldn't suggest taking more than two unless this guy is a Nemesis) no matter where they are on the talent tree and go.

 

It's only the PCs that need to adhere to the talent tree progression (can only purchase talents that aren't in the first row if it's connected to a talent you already have).  NPCs get to break the rules like that.


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#11 aljovin

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:42 AM

Thanks for the answers, it clears it up a lot! This NPC isn't going to be a foe, it's an Astromech that I'm building to tag along with the PCs. One of them is an Outlaw Tech, so it will be his droid. ;)

#12 lilybf

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

I created a Slicer as my first character last night and my Storyteller and I agreed that there is a mistake in the talent tree. Forgive me for my imprecision - I don't have the book at the moment.

 

We consider that the top-right most talent (about removing a black dice from rolls involving unlocking things) should be linked to the one immediately below. This would mean Slicers has two primary paths, one based around decryption, one around bypassing locks.



#13 BrashFink

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:55 PM

I created a Slicer as my first character last night and my Storyteller and I agreed that there is a mistake in the talent tree. Forgive me for my imprecision - I don't have the book at the moment.

 

We consider that the top-right most talent (about removing a black dice from rolls involving unlocking things) should be linked to the one immediately below. This would mean Slicers has two primary paths, one based around decryption, one around bypassing locks.

Going through all of the beta forums last weekend, I see no evidence of this being incorrect. There was no traction on any of the threads started about it. This points to me that is is correct as it stands.

 

I believe the correct conclusion is that the Slicer MUST do all things on the left side to gather his basic "l33t skillz". The lone 5's are so he has some small ones to buy along the way while working down his main path.



#14 GM Chris

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

Going through all of the beta forums last weekend, I see no evidence of this being incorrect. There was no traction on any of the threads started about it. This points to me that is is correct as it stands.

 

 

I believe the correct conclusion is that the Slicer MUST do all things on the left side to gather his basic "l33t skillz". The lone 5's are so he has some small ones to buy along the way while working down his main path.

I think Brash has the right of this.  Was like this in the beta - and hasn't changed.  You'll find similar situations in other talent trees.


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#15 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

I created a Slicer as my first character last night and my Storyteller and I agreed that there is a mistake in the talent tree. Forgive me for my imprecision - I don't have the book at the moment.

 

We consider that the top-right most talent (about removing a black dice from rolls involving unlocking things) should be linked to the one immediately below. This would mean Slicers has two primary paths, one based around decryption, one around bypassing locks.

Unfortunately, from FFG's perspective this isn't an error.

 

I suggested moving the link between Columns 1 and 2 from the 4th Row down to the 3rd Row during the Beta process, but obviously it was a suggestion that the designers didn't agree with.

 

As GM Chris said, there are other trees with similarly "odd" set-ups, such as the Scoundrel (can't reach the middle section until you've taken either Natural Charmer or Soft Spot) and Trader (can't access the rest of the talents in Rows 2 and 3 until you've bought the Column 1 talent for that Row), as well as the Force-Sensitive Exile having to buy up to Row 4 talents before they can move into the middle section of their tree.


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#16 BrashFink

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:12 AM

There was a lot of huffing and puffing about making all the talent trees the same, which would have been horrible IMO. I think it is interesting that you have to ponder exactly how you are going to attack each one.



#17 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:51 PM

There was a lot of huffing and puffing about making all the talent trees the same, which would have been horrible IMO. I think it is interesting that you have to ponder exactly how you are going to attack each one.

Agreed.

 

If nothing else, it provides an interesting thought challenge for those of us that have devised our own talent trees as to how we're going to assemble them.


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#18 RogueRegault

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:32 PM

There was a lot of huffing and puffing about making all the talent trees the same, which would have been horrible IMO. I think it is interesting that you have to ponder exactly how you are going to attack each one.

 

But there is only one way to "attack" the slicer tree. You have to max out Defensive Slicing before you can take any of the row two or three talents.

 

Which means the GM has to constantly have NPC slicers attempting to break into the PC's systems in every adventure in order to eigenplot the Slicer into feeling useful.

 

I personally think it should be house ruled to have a connection between the two ranks of Bypass Security.  Right now the tree just looks like an unnatural attempt to force players to take Defensive Slicing.


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#19 Whitemare

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:30 AM

I wanted to build a cool slicer npc that might become my character if I switch off the gm responsibilities. With this talent tree I'd rather spend the points:
A)increasing my computer skill instead
B)taking any other talent tree to get something more useful than defensive hacking
C)take any other talent tree to get dedication so I can raise the intellect characteristic(to raise my computer skill further).

Bottom line, this talent tree is not my best option in making a cool, useful slicer. That just seems wrong.

As a previous poster said, that changes with a connection in that last column from 1st row to 2nd row. This way there are 2 types of slicer, the break-in guy and keep-out guy. I like that much better.

I feel bad house ruling my own future character, but it just feels too broken to use.

Maybe i can be proven wrong if i heard from anyone out there enjoying their multiple ranks of defensive hacking abilities.

#20 Tenrousei

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:20 PM

As always, do what works best for your game.

 

I wouldn't change it however.  For me it makes a certain kind of sense that a person would become familiar with how to prevent a system from being corrupted, the way it should look, before they would know how to break it, in the correct way at least.


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