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I was right about the PS 7 TIE Bomber pilot


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#21 Buhallin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:20 PM

 

I think the cost of a bomber with such an expensive long range missile would make it so that it wouldn't be that devastating. A schimtar bomber with a 6 point long range missile would cost 22 points. 3 of them that would be needed to have the statistical chance to destroy an x-wing as you describe (42% chance) would cost 66 pts.

 

So lets say someone does try this tactic  and manages to destroy or severely damage an x-wing. Ok, that stinks. But all that you have left  in this list is room for more missiles or torps for your bombers or a couple of academy pilots or something. At most the imp player could have a 5 ship build with these three bombers. And once they spend their payload they are sub par fighters that can't maneuver well (at least as far as we can anticipate). I think even a weakened rebel squad has a decent chance against 3 bombers and one or two other ships.

...

I'm kind of sick of the first round of play having all my ships move forward and do nothing. It would be fun to have the option to lob a shot or two across the board before we really mix it up.

The Firespray can also carry missiles.  Considering the hypothetical:

 

Bounty Hunter + UberMissile + Recon Specialist = 42

Scimitar + UberMissile = 22

Scimitar + UberMissile = 22

Academy Pilot = 12

2 points left over.

 

So you can kill or cripple Wedge on the first run, or drop a major number of hits on 2-3 TIEs depending on how lucky your rolls are.  Just going by raw points, you're at least +5.  What's more, you've got 25 total hull/shields, and your opponent's down their heaviest offensive threat.  All on the first turn of the game, before a shot is ever fired.  I think it's a game-breaking idea, and a very bad one that we really don't need.  Every CCG-style game that I've ever seen add speed has collapsed, because the only answer to speed is more speed.

 

For your last - if you think the only thing that can happen on the first turn is "Move forward and do nothing", I can't help you.  Whether I actually roll any dice or not, I assure you, every ship I've got is doing something that first turn.

 

@StevenO: I'm assuming this UberMissile wouldn't need a target lock to fire.  Otherwise, it's pretty much pointless - the use profile would be to carry it, wait until you're in Range 3, lock, and then wait until you move back out of Range 3?  That doesn't actually happen all that often, in my experience, and if you just lock and fire it provides nothing over other missiles.



#22 StevenO

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 08:39 AM

If you added a weapon that could be fired across the board without restriction it will either cost a LOT and/or it will give the target added defenses of some kind.

 

I'll also point out the "across the board" target lock will be possible using the Imperial Shuttle.  Requiring a TL would make it a slow and costly proposition to use this long range missile and mostly prevent the abuse you are so worried about while still introducing the concept.



#23 jedi moose

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:41 AM

 

 

For your last - if you think the only thing that can happen on the first turn is "Move forward and do nothing", I can't help you.  Whether I actually roll any dice or not, I assure you, every ship I've got is doing something that first turn.

 

Ok sure. Obviously the first round is where you set up your strategy for the initial pass. Straight down the middle, pincer attack, split your ships, keep them together, and a lot of other decisions. I'm not saying the first round is useless as it is. Its just a little boring IMO sometimes. I move all my ships, everybody takes a focus or an evade, or boost. Then I clear all those tokens off the board and do it over again. Unless of course both players do a 5 manuever right at each other, then maybe we will take a shot or 2.  A long range missile of some sort would add a little more excitement to that first round. It would make my decision to take a focus or an evade on that first round a bit more meaningful.

 

And I'm also not saying that the ideas  offered in this thread are the best ways to make a Long Range weapon work. What if this weapon when fired allows the targeted ship to increase his agility by 1 when defending during this attack? How about a 3 point weapon that only does 2 attack? Not as dangerous or expensive and reflects that a weapon fired from such a distance would be harder to be effective with, but still has a shot to do some damage. How about you can fire this weapon only if you have another ship with a target lock in range of the targeted ship. Said ship spends his target lock to allow the bomber to launch this long range weapon. Stuff like that happened all the time in the EU (especially X-wing Books).

 

I think it is a doable concept and doesn't have to be the uber-gamebreaking-hand-of-god-weapon that you are worried about. I trust that if FFG did something like this, they could do it without ruining the game i love so much.



#24 Duraham

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:51 AM

 

 

 

For your last - if you think the only thing that can happen on the first turn is "Move forward and do nothing", I can't help you.  Whether I actually roll any dice or not, I assure you, every ship I've got is doing something that first turn.

 

Ok sure. Obviously the first round is where you set up your strategy for the initial pass. Straight down the middle, pincer attack, split your ships, keep them together, and a lot of other decisions. I'm not saying the first round is useless as it is. Its just a little boring IMO sometimes. I move all my ships, everybody takes a focus or an evade, or boost. Then I clear all those tokens off the board and do it over again. Unless of course both players do a 5 manuever right at each other, then maybe we will take a shot or 2.  A long range missile of some sort would add a little more excitement to that first round. It would make my decision to take a focus or an evade on that first round a bit more meaningful.

 

And I'm also not saying that the ideas  offered in this thread are the best ways to make a Long Range weapon work. What if this weapon when fired allows the targeted ship to increase his agility by 1 when defending during this attack? How about a 3 point weapon that only does 2 attack? Not as dangerous or expensive and reflects that a weapon fired from such a distance would be harder to be effective with, but still has a shot to do some damage. How about you can fire this weapon only if you have another ship with a target lock in range of the targeted ship. Said ship spends his target lock to allow the bomber to launch this long range weapon. Stuff like that happened all the time in the EU (especially X-wing Books).

 

I think it is a doable concept and doesn't have to be the uber-gamebreaking-hand-of-god-weapon that you are worried about. I trust that if FFG did something like this, they could do it without ruining the game i love so much.

 

You do realize that your ships do not have to be pointed forwards right? do a hard turn to the sides, start off the battle with your ships facing the sides and speed off into the corner before turning into the battlefield, etcetc



#25 jedi moose

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 11:04 AM

 

You do realize that your ships do not have to be pointed forwards right? do a hard turn to the sides, start off the battle with your ships facing the sides and speed off into the corner before turning into the battlefield, etcetc

 

Yes i realize that. Which is why I said "and a lot of other decisions".There are lots of different strategies for set up and first round of play. My post was more about how a long range weapon (if done well) could make for even more possible strategies and add another aspect to the game.

But in all seriousness thank you for making sure i knew that. Honestly i don't play that way very often (ship facing the side) because i feel it telegraphs my moves a little too much. If i set my ship up facing the right edge of the board, my opponent knows my ship is going to be making a left turn somewhere in the immediate future. If i set the ship up straight or even at an angle, i could be going straight, banking or turning either direction. Personally i like that option a little bit more.


Edited by jedi moose, 07 August 2013 - 11:06 AM.


#26 StevenO

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 12:05 PM

Since we're just speaking about hypotheticals if you dropped a long range missile that can fire across the board without issues to two damage dice you've pretty much ruined it against anything but the low defense ships.  It would be the lowest damage potential of any secondary weapon and nearly a complete non-threat against evasive targets.

 

If the damage potential is the issue then something would be done to limit the maximum.  Perhaps it should attack with four dice but only get to deal a maximum of one damage on a hit although that hit could be a critical.



#27 TheKestrel

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:28 PM

This is all super hypothetical at this point, but I am completely certain there would be ways to make such a weapon appealing to some, without breaking the game. Maybe it is a missile that CAN ONLY be fired outside of range 3. Maybe it doesn't require a target lock, but randomly homes in on a target that you don't get to choose. Maybe it can only target large ships. Maybe it has a token and moves like a ship and can be shot down on approach. Maybe it ONLY attacks shields, or ONLY attacks ships that have no shields.

I don't know the canon of the expanded SW universe well enough to say which, if any, of these ideas might be appropriate to something that already exists. But from a strictly game design point of view, coupled with cost balancing, there's obviously many ways to make it work without ruining anything.






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