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Aiming & special attack actions


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#1 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM

Is it possible to use the Aim action (either Half or Full) to provide a bonus to non-Standard Attacks, such as a Semi- or Full-Auto burst, Stun attempts, Guarded Attacks, or Charges?


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#2 Jargal

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:40 PM

As I understand RAW, Aim does not apply only to the second and subsequent attacks that you can make with two weapons or/and Swift/Lightning Attack. Even Dual Strike/Shot can benefit from Aim because you make only one WS/BS test. The only exception should be Knock-Down due to the fact that it used Opposed Strength Test.



#3 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 11:02 AM

Jargal said:

As I understand RAW, Aim does not apply only to the second and subsequent attacks that you can make with two weapons or/and Swift/Lightning Attack. Even Dual Strike/Shot can benefit from Aim because you make only one WS/BS test. The only exception should be Knock-Down due to the fact that it used Opposed Strength Test.

Thanks for the clarification :)

So this means that you CAN get the aiming bonus to Full- and Semi-Auto bursts because you only make a single BS test, even though such attacks fire more than one bullet? Our group thought this was not possible -- you get no bonus to burst fire when using a Red-Dot sight, so we extrapolated that careful aiming would not significantly increase burst accuracy.


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#4 Jargal

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

So this means that you CAN get the aiming bonus to Full- and Semi-Auto bursts because you only make a single BS test

If your group is using "Rules As Written", without houserules, then yes.

Our group thought this was not possible -- you get no bonus to burst fire when using a Red-Dot sight

Red-Dot is only one of the many sights. Motion Predictor (RT Core Rulebook) adds +10 to BS if weapon fired in semi- or full-auto. Targeter (IH/Errata 3.0) grants +10 to all BS tests. In the DW books you can find even more.



#5 Covered in Weasels

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

OK, that does clear things up quite a bit. Thanks for your assistance!


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#6 ranoncles

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:23 PM

It depends....

 

Aim is a half action and semi and full auto are full actions so it can't be done in a single round.

Beyond that, it is just plain silly IMO.

 

Full auto is popularly known as "spray & pray", not "aim & spray". The rules can't cover everything and in the end, you as the GM must still decide on what goes and then it helps to use a dose of common sense. Squinting down an assault rifle and then hosing the target just doesn't work. The barrel lift negates any effect aiming might have provided.

 

In my game, I have ruled that aiming only works for single attacks (ranged and melee) and after some grumbling, the players are now used to it. It also helps keep a modicum of balance between single shot weapons and full auto weapons.



#7 Brother Orpheo

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:10 PM

In my game, I have ruled that aiming only works for single attacks (ranged and melee) and after some grumbling, the players are now used to it. It also helps keep a modicum of balance between single shot weapons and full auto weapons.

This, with some tweaks.

 

I think the thing many people forget about Semi-Auto and Full Auto weapons is that you can hit more than one target with one to-hit Test. Well, as long as the targets are close enough together (w/in 2m if they wouldn't be any harder to hit than the original target). When faced with the Dark Eldar in Shades of Twilight I was capping off Full Auto to Suppress- there were eight of them, with the 1st incarnation of Splinter Rifles, only 6 of us, and the firefight opened at less than 20 meters. Getting lucky with two or three hits from Suppressing Fire allowed me to spread them around in such close confines. 


Edited by Brother Orpheo, 22 July 2013 - 07:23 PM.

=][=


#8 Jargal

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

It depends....

 

Aim is a half action and semi and full auto are full actions so it can't be done in a single round.

 

Nothing prohibits the use of two consecutive full actions. Yes it takes two rounds, but you will receive bonus for full-auto from full-action aim.



#9 borithan

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:09 AM

Full auto is popularly known as "spray & pray", not "aim & spray". The rules can't cover everything and in the end, you as the GM must still decide on what goes and then it helps to use a dose of common sense. Squinting down an assault rifle and then hosing the target just doesn't work. The barrel lift negates any effect aiming might have provided.

 

It is probably best imagining "Full-Auto" as a number of short bursts following each other, controlled by the character, rather than just someone hosing down an area with their fiinger on the trigger. If Full-auto Bursts were actually just standing there "spray and pray" then you would fire a heck of a lot more bullets. Most guns cap out at about RoF 10, which is only roughly 1 second's worth of shooting with most full auto-weapons (hey, half a second if you happen to be using a MG-42). There is no way this takes a whole Full action. Instead it is probably 2-3 controlled bursts in the 5 second period. Being able to aim the first of these bursts (by spending Aim actions in previous turns) would allow this to be more accurate. 



#10 Morangias

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:18 PM

Full auto is popularly known as "spray & pray", not "aim & spray". The rules can't cover everything and in the end, you as the GM must still decide on what goes and then it helps to use a dose of common sense. Squinting down an assault rifle and then hosing the target just doesn't work. The barrel lift negates any effect aiming might have provided.

 

Some barrel lift, huh?


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#11 Jargal

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:22 PM

Some barrel lift, huh?

 

Someone can say: "It's just the SMG".

 

How about 9x39 Special Assault Rifle "Val" in semi- & full-auto?


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#12 Morangias

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:50 PM

 

Some barrel lift, huh?

 

Someone can say: "It's just the SMG".

 

How about 9x39 Special Assault Rifle "Val" in semi- & full-auto?

Even better.

 

The thing about automatic fire is, it can be pretty accurate, and it's definitely not just for suppression. Barrel lift throwing the aim way off is what happens in movies and video games, and to ill-trained shooters who can't hold the gun properly and learn to compensate for recoil.


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#13 Jargal

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:49 PM

Well, single shots are more accurate than automatic fire, but that does not mean that when firing full-auto it is impossible or pointless to aim.



#14 Morangias

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:31 AM

Definitely not contesting that single shots are more accurate, just dismissing gun myths  ;)

 

The irony is, I'm instinctively protecting the ability to aim with semi and full auto from the perspective of BC/OW rules where it's actually tactically vital to take aim before spraying the enemy with bullets whenever possible. If someone's using the outdated DH/RT/DW rules on firing modes, reserving aim for single shots is actually a reasonable balancing factor. I just don't like the justification presented.


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#15 Jargal

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:37 AM

I too don't use original DH rules :-)



#16 lictorsticker

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:09 AM

 



Full auto is popularly known as "spray & pray", not "aim & spray". The rules can't cover everything and in the end, you as the GM must still decide on what goes and then it helps to use a dose of common sense. Squinting down an assault rifle and then hosing the target just doesn't work. The barrel lift negates any effect aiming might have provided.

 

Some barrel lift, huh?

 

umm hate to say this but he's not firing on full auto thats a 3 round burst and if he had been firing full auto he wouldnt hit his target nearly as well 


Edited by lictorsticker, 09 August 2013 - 09:10 AM.


#17 Jargal

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:51 AM

umm hate to say this but he's not firing on full auto thats a 3 round burst and if he had been firing full auto he wouldnt hit his target nearly as well

 

What about my link? ;-)


Edited by Jargal, 09 August 2013 - 09:55 AM.


#18 lictorsticker

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 02:57 AM

 

umm hate to say this but he's not firing on full auto thats a 3 round burst and if he had been firing full auto he wouldnt hit his target nearly as well

 

What about my link? ;-)

 

wow nice site lol 






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