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Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)


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#101 Macnme

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:23 AM

I can only go by my own experience, now that I have played the game a fair bit; (the full Base Ed campaign 5 times, the LotW Exp campaign 3 times);  That's about 72 individual sessions.

And I have yet to experience a close game... it is always 1 side dominating the other.

 

Again, I don't know why - but that's what's happened for me... 

It always ends with at least one, if not more, of us leaving the table in a bad mood.... and that's not what gaming should be about.

I'm starting to tire of it, as much as I would love to LOVE this game.... there's something not quite right about it.


Edited by Macnme, 28 July 2013 - 08:29 AM.


#102 Robin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 08:36 AM

In your experience (which is larger than mine), does one given side always dominate the other in a specific quest?


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#103 Macnme

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:00 AM

No, not always.

I've kept play logs (well, you kind of have to if you're playing a campaign); 

And I guess over the course of all of the campaigns, it does average out to about 50/50 win ratio. Take the Fat Goblin Quest... I think I've played it 6 times - 3 wins for Overlord, 3 wins for Heroes. I've been on both sides.

 

So - Over-all, it does balance itself out... but while playing the individual encounter - one side will always dominate the other.

 

I reckon this is to do with the dice rolls... randomness is clumpy - it is not evenly spread... so rarely (or never in my case) do the dice rolls balance themselves out in the individual encounter (which represent a few dozen dice rolls) to make things even..... 

But when taking the campaign wide view (which represents hundreds of dice rolls overall), things look a lot more even.

 

It still leaves the problem that "in the moment" it always feels hopeless for one of the sides.


Edited by Macnme, 28 July 2013 - 09:01 AM.


#104 Robin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 10:55 AM

I have experimented less "hopeless" games, where one side won by about the last dice roll.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#105 Silverhelm

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:40 AM

As much as I'm fond of Descent 2 (it alone is responsible for me returning to the boardgame hobby after a 20 year absence) ; 
I have found that the individual sessions are never really balanced.
Every single encounter is massively skewed in favour of either the PCs or the OL.
Either the PCs will get into a death spiral of "Stand-up Action: that's all I can do > Overlord Turn: I've knocked out your Characters again MWAHAHAHAHA > repeat ad nausiem"
OR
The overlord gets into a death spiral "OL: Ok - I get one reinforcement this turn > PC: It's dead, and we can continue on our mission with impunity" 
 
I've yet to have a 'Balanced' game, where it felt like the tide could turn either way. Each time, from the off, it's been clear who has the advantage, and "surprise, surprise", the one with advantage wins.
Sure, maybe over the course of a campaign, it's balanced overall, when all sessions are taken together... but each individual session feels incredibly unbalanced.
 
My regular game group is getting pretty tired of it as well.
 
 
 
I don't know.... is it just me and my mates? or has anyone else found this?


Yes and No on average I probably win most quests. On campaign The Shadow Rune we noticed there's a game within a game (like baseball)going on. One being the money game the other being just getting through a quest and winning. In our exsperiance money for heros is more powerful then exp. for OL. But the money game is fun it adds more then just beat a quest and get reward. I prefer heroes play this way because I feel like that's the way game was meant to be played. For example if all a scout did was fight then he is almost a waisted hero choice. For are games this guy is usually MVP because if he gets atleast 1/2 or more coins each encounter then the heros will benifit on final,and should be benefiting by act2. (Dont forget secret passage,and chest card. Search deck isn't very big).

The end game for me seems to be like what you mentioned. Do heroes have enough bang for there buck. If they do I generally loose.

Then again this campaign is an introduction and it maybe ment to be as it is. I own but haven't played new campaign yet and from what I've read I think it's going to be an improvement.
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#106 Zarovich

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

I don't like how much more tactical the OL must be than the Heroes.

 

For the OL to be competitive, they must always go with the most diabolical monster choices available to them.  I would like to be able to play the OL more like the heroes, where you can just jog through laughing.

 

As an OL that can take on any of my playing heroes in a RTS or TBS, this is not a case of my lack of ability.  


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#107 Kunzite

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

I don't like how much more tactical the OL must be than the Heroes.

 

For the OL to be competitive, they must always go with the most diabolical monster choices available to them.  I would like to be able to play the OL more like the heroes, where you can just jog through laughing.

 

As an OL that can take on any of my playing heroes in a RTS or TBS, this is not a case of my lack of ability.  

 

This is something we have also noticed. The OL has to be tactical and the heroes run most of the things with more the luck of the draw. Where as I love tactical and underhanded work (seems more evil to me, so I play my role) the heroes wished they had more tactical means of playing. Our first quest in LoR was nail biting where I began to depend on the panicked villagers (a 50/50 chance of me controlling them at all) seemed a wee bit frustrating for me since I wasn't guaranteed their use. But I also think that chance is what made that quest fair. The heroes where left with the hope of taking down a goblin every time they shot off their attacks. Where as I only have to plan the prefect escape route. Once I got going with the captive, the heroes where surprised on how far I got her.

 

BTW, they ended up winning that by one turn. I don't think I did anything wrong, nor do I think they did. Because of the villagers, I feel that quest would feel different every time we play it.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#108 Pseudo Rage

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:07 AM

Im not a huge fan of how the OL is rewarded for quests either. I was thinking they should have

given the OL a choice of which lieutenant to play as through a campaign and depending on

which one he chooses there would be classes for him to pick from. than he could spend his XP

the same way heroes do and progress through his class customizing it to combat the heroes. So

basically the OL had a hero to play and advance the same way complete with fatigue and all the

Same combat mechanics the heroes have. Maybe with some commanding type abilities to help

boost his troops. I think this approach would have addressed the lack of progression and

customization the OL feels during the campaign.

#109 Kunzite

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 09:41 AM

But then the OL would choose the same one every time. It also diminishes the ability to use many LT in the final, which is kind of the idea. After all Zacherith is much better then anyone else, but each of them have their pros. Alric and his Overpower. Balthir and his cry havoc AND flying. Just to name a few.

 

I don't know. I like it. It would be nice if some of the prize for the quests where a little juicy. But I can't imagine the OL getting too much more powerful then he is now. It would become OP. As much as I would like that.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#110 Silverhelm

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:43 PM

Im not a huge fan of how the OL is rewarded for quests either. I was thinking they should have
given the OL a choice of which lieutenant to play as through a campaign and depending on
which one he chooses there would be classes for him to pick from. than he could spend his XP
the same way heroes do and progress through his class customizing it to combat the heroes. So
basically the OL had a hero to play and advance the same way complete with fatigue and all the
Same combat mechanics the heroes have. Maybe with some commanding type abilities to help
boost his troops. I think this approach would have addressed the lack of progression and
customization the OL feels during the campaign.


I like the idea of being able to progress a model like a hero. That would be interesting. But that would probably be a whole new game at this point. Dare I say D3 lol.

#111 Bobus X

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 08:22 PM

It really seems that the combination of Hero XP and the items they get really put a hurting on the Overlord.  Not to mention how crazy powerful their synergy can get.  I can get a good stack of cards if I get time, but lately they have been pasting my monsters and just running through the quests super fast.  They tend to kill all of my monsters in the first couple turns, then leisurely collect all the treasure and then the last quest objective.  The Necromancer especially gives me fits, the double move combined with the extra activation talent means he can move 9 squares and attack each turn, and also hits for a Blue, Red, and Yellow, which pretty much one shots all but my toughest monsters.  It is all I can do to stall them for a turn or two before its over.

 

I don't know what I am doing wrong, but I feel almost helpless now.  I used to win a lot, but then they started using the Necromancer, and I just can't stop it.  Do I need to just let them stomp me and hope I can eventually figure out a counter?  It is so lopsided sometimes that I lose my desire to play, which sucks sense I just bought both of the expansions and some extra dice.



#112 Silverhelm

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

@Bobus x
The Necro is the only class I haven't played against yet. I'm sure someone on here has some advice for you. I hate Tomble,Jain,Avic,and Berserker class at same time! Looks like the Necro can be nasty aswell.

Don't give up there's away! I'd turn this into a thread you'll probably get a lot of advice that way.

Edited by Silverhelm, 03 August 2013 - 10:30 PM.


#113 Kunzite

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:36 PM

I almost won with a necromancer. Hang in there!! My necromancer traded in another hard hitter for rocks. Allot of them. People that play these characters love micro managing everything. And they tend to be REALLY good at it. Try to find pattens they follow and then try not to leep into those patterns. Force the hero to work around you. That is what I ended up having to do. I still lost, but I enjoyed it much better since I leard that hero on a chase, making him expend his time to have to deal with that. It got me another quest win in ^.~!

 

If nothing else, learn from this campaign so you know how to thrash them in the next! >D!


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

NotesFromTheOverlord.tumblr.com


#114 Pseudo Rage

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:06 AM

@Kunzitr Well the LT could remain a forced pick and the XP could just roll over from quest to quest. And as far as making the OL more powerful that was the whole idea. I feel the OL plays with his back against the wall the entire campaign with zero forgiveness for any tactical errors he may happen to commit and some pretty ho hum rewards when he actually manages to defeat the meddlesome heroes.

@silverhelm i agree with you that this couldn't be implemented without alot of work and changes. So here's hoping 3rd times the charm

#115 Robin

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:08 AM

Descent 3rd edition NOW !  :lol:  :P  :D 


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#116 AltWren

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:03 PM

Descent 3rd edition NOW !  :lol:  :P  :D 

 

Only if they remold the original minis.



#117 Bobus X

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:12 PM

Lol, despite how badly I am getting stomped, I don't want to blame the game yet.  I have my suspicions, but hopefully with more practice I can learn some better counters.  I thought I had the hang of it, then this group just stomps me all day now.  I need to get a video camera and record it so people can tell me how I am screwing up.  I will admit a big problem is how the group interprets rules on the fly.  The players tend to vote my opinions down, and 9/10 when I go online and look it up later, my interpretation was correct.  They don't trust me since on the first playthrough I thought the monsters could double attack and was just slaughtering them...

 

So as of yet, I don't think there is a need for a new edition or major rules overhaul, I am just frustrated at how bad it is going, and it is really hard to not let my frustration show.  I am not a sore loser in any other game we play, including RPGs I GM, even if the players one shot my carefully crafted villains, or ignore my plot, but this game makes me want to spit nails, especially when it is really obvious to me when I have lost a quest, but I have to play it through to the end.  I just have to space the quests out enough in RL that I don't rage quit and ebay the game...


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#118 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 02:43 PM

Lol, despite how badly I am getting stomped, I don't want to blame the game yet. I have my suspicions, but hopefully with more practice I can learn some better counters. I thought I had the hang of it, then this group just stomps me all day now. I need to get a video camera and record it so people can tell me how I am screwing up. I will admit a big problem is how the group interprets rules on the fly. The players tend to vote my opinions down, and 9/10 when I go online and look it up later, my interpretation was correct. They don't trust me since on the first playthrough I thought the monsters could double attack and was just slaughtering them...

So as of yet, I don't think there is a need for a new edition or major rules overhaul, I am just frustrated at how bad it is going, and it is really hard to not let my frustration show. I am not a sore loser in any other game we play, including RPGs I GM, even if the players one shot my carefully crafted villains, or ignore my plot, but this game makes me want to spit nails, especially when it is really obvious to me when I have lost a quest, but I have to play it through to the end. I just have to space the quests out enough in RL that I don't rage quit and ebay the game...

No wonder your about to quit your playing by there rules! Pull out the book god and bring judgment on them! (Rule book)

Edited by Silverhelm, 04 August 2013 - 05:29 PM.


#119 Kunzite

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

The players tend to vote my opinions down, and 9/10 when I go online and look it up later, my interpretation was correct.  They don't trust me since on the first playthrough I thought the monsters could double attack and was just slaughtering them...

 

How dare they contest the power of the OL. Go show them who's boss!! >O

 

Kidding aside, people, go play LoR. I have lost both the opening quest. Tonight I lost Sarena's quest, but at a HUGE cost for the heroes. In a nutshell: they let 4 search tokens go in fear of me getting three EXP (Sun Stone retrieval which can give me an EXP, the natural one from the quest and winning the quest gives me another). I ended up only getting two, when I decide to cash in on the Sun Stone. I was two turns away from winning. If the heroes became greedy (which I told them from the start, it will come down to them being greedy) they would have lose.

 

In the end, I feel like I had a half win. LoR looks like it's going to be a nail biter for heroes and OL that ware good matches mentally. Go play that. SR is a hard customer. But I will warn you guys: FF took off the kitty gloves for this one and pulled out the claws. I can't see any easy wins for the OL yet as SR had a few. Everyone is going to bust butt to get what they want out of this.


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

NotesFromTheOverlord.tumblr.com


#120 Silverhelm

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 10:52 PM

@Kunzite I own it just haven't played it yet. Can't wait hopefully this week.
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