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Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)


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#41 SolennelBern

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

 



+1 to DocPanic

I absolutely agree that heroes are really over powered, especially when you are playing against 4 heroes. Me and my playing group were really surprised when FF nerfed OL even more with the last FAQ. I also agree that OL is not enough rewarded, and the time between quests (when playing campaign) is not that fun for the OL as for the heroes.

Just as an example - in our last campaign, Grisban (berserker), had an axe from second act shop which gives two red dice, he basically could (and actually did couple of times) kill a red dragon with a single hit. Desciple would buff him with a yellow dice so Grisban rolled: 1 yellow, 2 red, 1 blue. Then he also added surg from the wepon mastery ability that he had. The amount of damage he could inflict was just devastating.

Aditionally all hereos were armed to the teath as Tomble playing as a thiev managed to collect 95% of treasures. Heroes could purchase everything they wanted and in the end they even had unspent gold.

In the campaign I mentioned I was playing for one of the heroes and it was really not enough challenge for me….

So I would also ask FF not to nerf OL anymore but instead add some more options and tools to deal with heroes.

I'm experiencing the same thing: 4 heroes (all female characters with better classes), all best weapons and armors from phase 1 (won every encounter, collected every item - > [yellow] rune blaster of minimum of 3 hp hit + reroll, [blue] stunner/healer, [red] armoured tank 3 armour dices with 3 rerolls and [green] fast ranged). Interlude to phase 2 took 13 h because they calculated every possible turn outcome, I made 1 mistake and then it was there (after 13 h).

 

As an OL I'm collecting Magnus. As an OL I'm being nerffed in every update. As an OL I gain no joy in this game.

 

'Yay all my dragons are one shotted' 'Yay all my monsters are stunned' 'Yay I made mistake and in their turn they win'

 

It is frustrang to play as OL when heroes are 'cloud computing' everything and killing 1 minion goblin archer takes 1 h.

 

 

Is it just me or the Magus set is not the best?!?

 

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I mostly skip the Magus cards and often go Warlord/Punisher.  I'm not the kind that like to play with trap toys :P

 

Maybe try a new level tree and if you have LoR try the new Basic II cards, they look quite fun, but a bit more situationnal and some have extra effects when played on a specific archetype.

 

The more you'll play the better you'll get!



#42 Kunzite

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

Is it just me or the Magus set is not the best?!?

 

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I mostly skip the Magus cards and often go Warlord/Punisher.  I'm not the kind that like to play with trap toys :P

 

I played Magus with a splash of sabator. It worked well for me. Matter of fact the heroes HATED everything about my deck. <3 I loved it, though this time around I might go for more sabator with warrior class. It all depends on what is needed for Labryenth.


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#43 Robin

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:37 AM

 

My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D

 

I won't blame you for anything.

At least, you know what you are doing and you are not blaming the game.

There presently are two active threads, starting for one on the premise that the OL is OP and for the other that the OL does not stand a chance.

Call that cosmical balance or whatever, to me it shows that blaming the game for being as a whole unbalanced in only one side's favour is not very serious - until deicisive, general reasons are given, rather than anecdotical or very localized (i.e. limited to a single group of players) references.

 

And I fully agree that the aim of all gaming is fun.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#44 Silverhelm

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:13 PM

How to win as a hero player(campaign only)take a healer class Disciple class is good (why?).Because with prayer of healing you are automatically taking power away from OL rendering his conditions useless. Since you can't die until the end of game try this. In act 1 focus on all search tokens. Loosing a quest is only a minor set back! Don't buy any act 1 gear unless its really good. Beat any quest you can (and you will)don't worry if you loose them in act 2 you'll make it up in unbeatable power. In act 2 spend your fortune on good act 2 gear. In act 2 you should beat all quests and all monsters with ease. The end game is where it's at (to the death). If you successively gear up your heroes buy good skills you'll do better then average against any OL in my opinion. Think of the game as a first to power wins. You could focus your efforts on every quest but in a game where you can't die or loose until the end a heroes primary goal is money, and loot then skills not exactly in that order but you can figure out what you need at the right time like skills.

Some changes I'd like to see in this game is. #1 when a hero gets KO they shouldn't just be allowed to just get up. A KO should be the worse thing that can happen to a hero and the OL player should be better rewarded for the effort(getting a card? Lol). How about a KO hero needs to roll some sort of die to get up then roll for the gain of wounds. OL reward? Well the reward is they might not get up on there turn. #2 Conditions look i want to make them suffer. #3 I want the OL to become as powerful as a hero can in act 2....

I've lost to the above strategy more then I want to remember. And I've won a few it's possible. Bad rollers,crappy shop cards to name a low possibility.

#45 Kunzite

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:31 PM

How to win as a hero player(campaign only)take a healer class Disciple class is good (why?).Because with prayer of healing you are automatically taking power away from OL rendering his conditions useless. Since you can't die until the end of game try this. In act 1 focus on all search tokens. Loosing a quest is only a minor set back! Don't buy any act 1 gear unless its really good. Beat any quest you can (and you will)don't worry if you loose them in act 2 you'll make it up in unbeatable power. In act 2 spend your fortune on good act 2 gear. In act 2 you should beat all quests and all monsters with ease. The end game is where it's at (to the death). If you successively gear up your heroes buy good skills you'll do better then average against any OL in my opinion. Think of the game as a first to power wins. You could focus your efforts on every quest but in a game where you can't die or loose until the end a heroes primary goal is money, and loot then skills not exactly in that order but you can figure out what you need at the right time like skills.

Some changes I'd like to see in this game is. #1 when a hero gets KO they shouldn't just be allowed to just get up. A KO should be the worse thing that can happen to a hero and the OL player should be better rewarded for the effort(getting a card? Lol). How about a KO hero needs to roll some sort of die to get up then roll for the gain of wounds. OL reward? Well the reward is they might not get up on there turn. #2 Conditions look i want to make them suffer. #3 I want the OL to become as powerful as a hero can in act 2....

I've lost to the above strategy more then I want to remember. And I've won a few it's possible. Bad rollers,crappy shop cards to name a low possibility.

 

 

I over herd my heroes talking about this. I am not looking forward to this because I KNOW this is the best plan. They are also talking about taking the thief's quest for Labyrinth. I'm already cringing. As you might expect, that root takes you through allot of money before act two. But like anything else they have ever thrown at me, I will be thinking about how to counter that...

 

I think my saving grace if the fact that they hate to lose, and there for will try, hard, to win.


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#46 SolennelBern

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P


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#47 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:21 AM

Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P

 

Exactly this! My group started another run through Shadow Ruin, but my copy of Labyrinth should be showing up tomorrow, and I'm hoping my heroes will be okay with me integrating the new monsters into our already-started campaign. And if they do, the first moment I can get zombies and arachyura onto the same field, I'm going to! Wimpy little brown-die-defense zombies to make the heroes feel good about themselves, then a giant freakin' spider to mess with their day. Or better yet, TWO giant freakin' spiders  :D


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#48 SolennelBern

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:23 AM

 


 

Exactly this! My group started another run through Shadow Ruin, but my copy of Labyrinth should be showing up tomorrow, and I'm hoping my heroes will be okay with me integrating the new monsters into our already-started campaign. And if they do, the first moment I can get zombies and arachyura onto the same field, I'm going to! Wimpy little brown-die-defense zombies to make the heroes feel good about themselves, then a giant freakin' spider to mess with their day. Or better yet, TWO giant freakin' spiders  :D

 

 

 

Nice! Looks like a fun mix to play with! I really like the new monsters from LoR, they look great and seem to pack some punch! 

 

I'm starting a mini-campaign tonight as the OL with my bro since he wants to try the Heroes side and get the feel of a campaign, so the LotW mini-campaign is a cool way to get into the game and keep the general character progression feel.

 

There's nothing that would stop you from using the new monsters in an ongoing campaign apart from the players you play with.  If they don't want to don't use them...but if they don't want the new monsters I would not give them the new Shop Items, conditions and other mixable stuff and evil laugh at their faces :P


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#49 Kunzite

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:25 AM

This will be our second campaign, and our first one where MOST people don't get salty. At least, if I can convince my arachnophobia friend that LoR is not the set she wants to play. Oooh spiders >} She gets really salty always and isn't a huge team player. She would do better with a one on one.

 

Saying that, the Heroes are still trying to get a feel for how they want to play. They already know how I like to torment them. We laugh hard when my illustrations of them come out. I often tease them about putting them into the female clothing to the characters they chose. It kept my very manly friend from choosing Scarlet, a skimpy character from the conversion kit. >] I might do it anyways. Just once.


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#50 DocPanic

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:15 AM

 

 

My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D

 

I won't blame you for anything.

At least, you know what you are doing and you are not blaming the game.

There presently are two active threads, starting for one on the premise that the OL is OP and for the other that the OL does not stand a chance.

Call that cosmical balance or whatever, to me it shows that blaming the game for being as a whole unbalanced in only one side's favour is not very serious - until deicisive, general reasons are given, rather than anecdotical or very localized (i.e. limited to a single group of players) references.

 

And I fully agree that the aim of all gaming is fun.

 

Oh, thanks.

But I was not only complaining about the game balance. I stay with the idea that the heroes advance much faster.

I also mentioned, that the OL does not have the same possibilities in advancing.

While the heros loot, buy, level you only get to choose one single card (or not). And you even can be beaten before you

draw it.

 

To love this game again, I only would like the OL to get more choices. To but skills and gear for his minions (e.g. the red ones). And in act 2 the monster definitly need more power (damage AND health). With 3 dice (sometimes 4, if you have the priest) you definitly can kill EVERYTHING very fast.



#51 poet1001

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

I think DocPanic has pretty nice idea about OL gearing up monsters and getting some additional skills (besides OL cards).

 

I see it like, for example, an additional deck of cards with some upgrades for mosters and/or condition cards (to make them more powerful). OL would pick one of these cards in the very beginning of the campaign and two more after the interlude (or according to the amount of quests he won in the act 1, win 2 quests = get 2 cards).

 

Such deck does not need to be big, I think 12 - 15 cards would be enough, just for the sake of variety (OL would not be able to get all of them anyway so he will have to think which cards would be more suitable to his play style or OL cards he has).

 

I really hope FF will draw its attention to this thread and consider the idea.
 


Edited by poet1001, 12 July 2013 - 07:35 AM.


#52 modernman55

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:50 AM

I had a similar experience when we played through the first couple campaigns we did. As OL I got steam rolled, even with the ACT 2 monsters. I think the problem was the heroes (my friends are veteran RPG and strategy gamers) spent a lot of planning time in their hero and class selection before we began that it became increasingly difficult to deal with the synergy they created (I have the conversion pack, we played Descent v1). They just love stunning and cc, from the get go they were looking for every way to stun stun stun. Hero abilities with cc, class with the most cc, weapons with stun as a surge. Every encounter they would in effect turn my turn into one where I could not attack and position, I had to choose one, since I had to discard the stun condition. Positioning without attacking is pointless since my monsters are just toothless space occupiers. Attacking was impossible, I spent the encounter relying on range monsters to do the damage because they do not need their move action to get into mele range, but the heroes always knew this and put the tank to block LOS. It was super frustrating. 

 

The next campaign we started I decided to be a **** and I told them they had to random everything! They had to randomly select their heroes and the classes. This was met with lots of complaints from most of the heroes (the one guy who likes randomness in games embraced the idea). It finally was agreed upon when I said someone else be OL for the next campaign, but after seeing how hard of a time I had the previous campaign they did not want to trade places. 

 

So we randomly selected a hero from each archetype, and then for each of those we flipped coins to see which class they will have to be. 

 

We ended up not finishing that campaign, since I sadly relocated to a different part of the country. We did finish the first act, and I think it helped with the balancing of our campaign. I won half the first act quests, even got one of the relics. It did not gimp the heroes at all, they still found synergy with their heroes abilities. The heroes ended up with strategies out of their comfort zones way more since they could not depend on WHIRLWIND, with STUN! ATTACK WITH BURST... and STUN!


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#53 Radish

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:55 AM

I think the problem is that heroes snowball in power while the Overlord does not.  My opinion as to the reason why is If the Overlord wins quests he/she is typically rewarded with stuff that is situationally useful; either gear for Leutenants that are not always present, cards that are randomized in the deck, etc.  When heroes get more XP for skills or better weapons they can use those every single turn.  So if the Overlord does poorly early on, it can result in heroes throwing out a huge amount of DPS and then for the rest of the game they are just going to be getting better and better.  There is obviously a cap to this as there is only so many weapons and stuff they can aquire but if they do it early enough there is no way for the Overlord to get his/her upgrades outside of cards and those will be at a slower pace.  On multiple occations with different players being the Overlord our group has noticed that at four heroes it's very hard to keep up with hero damage, especially once they've gotten specific skills.

 

I think that there needs to be some way to upgrade monsters outside of just the standard act 2 buffs they get.  Give Overlord the ability to spend XP on something that will be a static buff.  Something along the lines of level 3 Overlord cards that once played gives all monsters of a specific type (or more than one) +2 damage for the rest of the encounter and then have them spaced out into the different Overlord archtype card sets so they he/she has to work to get more than one.

 

I also think certain hero/class type combonations are broken.  When multiples of those are taken by the players this gets out of hand incredibly quickly.  I was able to trivialize a good deal of encounters by taking the character that could gain extra move and flip search tokens if she moved by them in combination with the smoke grenade item and the tumble ability.  There was almost nothing the Overlord could do short of hyperfocusing on me which left the other three heroes untouched.  Most of the movement inparing cards were useless due to my character's high perception abilitly and lucky charm reroll.  Randomizing heroes and classes I think is almost a requirement to avoid this.


Edited by Radish, 12 July 2013 - 06:59 AM.

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#54 Silverhelm

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:56 AM

Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.
 
I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.
 
I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P


This isn't a thread about "are you playing to have fun?"thread. "Are you telling the Heroes a good bed time story?" Thread. This thread is intended to find flaws with the game and we did( look above). If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

I work with math for a living everyday and I can tell you without whipping out a calculator the OL needs help! Atleast help after act 2.

Every game video,table top, board game has design flaws. The conversion kit can add even more unbalance to the OL. When hero players go to find a combination to there liking and OL can't really do the same that's a flaw. Because hero players will know where there heroes power will be vs OL after a few quests. I can't simply go to my poor goblin and say " here goblin you need this new shinny bow and this speedy boots". Ahh all better!

#55 Radish

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:04 AM

Yeah Descent isn't an RPG even if it is similar in a lot of ways.  It's a competitive board game where the idea is to win and thus should be as balanced as possible.  The World of Darkness RPG system for instance is full of issues but the game master can tinker with stuff since the goal of that game is to have an interactive experiance moderated by someone that can do anything regarding the rules and setting.  In this game the Overlord is a player bound by restrictions as are the heroes; he/she isn't moderating the game but playing an opposing side.  Both sides should be trying as hard as they can to win without cheating so it benefits the game as a whole to make sure everything is equal as possible so that one side isn't frustrated and the other isn't bored.


Edited by Radish, 12 July 2013 - 08:05 AM.

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#56 Kunzite

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

I am hearing about allot of combo bashing and OL having a hard time getting around it. My heroes came up with cripple and prayer of peace combo. Wow, that kind of ticked me off one quest, but my thinking is if something is holding me back then *I* need to change my strategy to counter theirs. My biggest fear was my big, black, final dragon being held down and spanked to death. Even though I lost that final, I won by braking their combo and taking down their healer and coming 5H away from taking down their berserk. Had I had one more turn with Zackerith, the game would have been mine. Having the game at my disadvantage (that final was playing for the Heroes since they held me back earlier in the act) and getting so close to taking them down I think is good.

 

Instead of saying how unfair we OL have it, we need to think of ways to turn the tide. You don't like their combos? Find a way to mess them up. You don't like how they have money for weapons, hold them away from search tokens, however that might look. You don't like them leveling up, then figure out how to win with research to push them off.

 

We can do that with what we've got!


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#57 SolennelBern

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

 

Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.
 
I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.
 
I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P


This isn't a thread about "are you playing to have fun?"thread. "Are you telling the Heroes a good bed time story?" Thread. This thread is intended to find flaws with the game and we did( look above). If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

I work with math for a living everyday and I can tell you without whipping out a calculator the OL needs help! Atleast help after act 2.

Every game video,table top, board game has design flaws. The conversion kit can add even more unbalance to the OL. When hero players go to find a combination to there liking and OL can't really do the same that's a flaw. Because hero players will know where there heroes power will be vs OL after a few quests. I can't simply go to my poor goblin and say " here goblin you need this new shinny bow and this speedy boots". Ahh all better!

 

 

I completely understand your point here but I'll defend mine to the death! :P

 

When I buy a game I know it'll have issues with it, it's been designed and develop buy human being bound to make errors.  When I buy a game I buy it to play it, not to find issues it may have...since I know there will be.

 

When I play a game I play to relax myself and think about something else, have fun with friends and laugh in the process, not to verbalise every issue we coma accross and break the mood of the evening...cause if I want mood breaking situations I only have to come to work and I get my fix.

 

When I get home I grab a beer, call some buddies, pick a game and play it.  And if something is clearly broken we'll continue playing anyways and maybe if we're feeling like it come up with a houserule that suites our group.

 

I'll repeat myself and that is something I already said in a couple other threads:

 

- My play style is a casual one where I play a game and don't care about flaws as long as everyone is have a blast around the table.  If someone doesn't enjoy himself/herself we'll discuss it after the game and create a hotfix for it.

 

- Some other people play styles is to study and dissect the game to it's core to find every issues it may have.  Then post on forums to let other players know of the issues and explain them and more ofthen than not some up with a quick fix.  I IMMENSELY respect them for taking the time peeling every layers of the game and let everyone know of the flaws they found.

 

So in summary, I extremely appreciate the time some take to find flaws but it'll not divert me nor my group in having fun with the game as is. :)


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#58 Robin

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:50 AM

If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

Well, on BGG, there is a poll about which has had about 250 answers.

33% consider that the heroes are favoured

33% consider that the OL is favoured

33% consider that the game is balanced...

(and the majority, counting those who believe that Descent is balanced) consider that one side is at most "slightly"unbalanced (in one or the other direction).

 

So we are far from having an unanimous, massive belief (the "flaws" which some find are based upon only some factors and don't take the whole picture into account) that one side is more favoured that the other.

 

I think that, at the present stage of evaluation, the real question really is "do you have fun playing Descent  (as the OL, as the heroes) ?", whatever pretense of "serious" analysis of the game's balance the posters believe they can display.

 

Of course, playing the OL is not the same thing as playing the heroes, and one can naturally prefer one role over the other.


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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#59 Radish

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:11 AM

Part of that poll should be how many players are involved.  In our group our experiance is that with five players it favors the heroes but with less it favors the Overlord.


Edited by Radish, 12 July 2013 - 09:11 AM.

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#60 Silverhelm

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

So polls and votes are accurate? Lol that's why there's always a perfect president....Meaning if 99% of the population were convinced on president A would be good one. And that president B was chosen by 1% of the population. Problem was president A proved to be the worst in history.

There is no way to prove that that 1% was right. That's my problem with voting/polls.

If you could separate fanboys,or I like it the way it is,or I like OL or Heroes better people(No pun intended), then there may be a chance for an accurate vote/poll. Say an amount of play throughs with players who have a good understanding of the rules (FFG refs). Players with the ability to adapt to OL and Heroes stratagies after a few games then we can see.




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