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Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)


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#21 DocPanic

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:36 AM

bringweed said:

As an OL in my group i can say that i don't feel even the tiniest bit unhappy about my "loot" at the end of a quest. Indeed it's not much, but it's enough for you to work with and be able to cast your vengeance upon the heroes. I only finished one campaing so far with my group, which is admit i lost in the end but only because it was 5am in the morning and 4 minds are better than one and other reasons (i won't say which), but other than First Blood in act I i have one every single quest, and then because of my mistakes again i lost the Interlude. After that i was indeed pretty much steamrolled until the end of the campaing. But my opinion is not that the OL doesn't advance as much as the heroes do, in fact i think he is more versatile throught the campaing than the heroes are. 

Look at it this way, the heroes get to pick a class and a character at the start of the campaing and they play until the end with those, althought they do indeed level them up and get better gear; gear which is always randomly drawn from the deck and can never know if will be of anyhelp. True that you can hoard the gold for a few quests and hope for that overpowered item you were waiting and saving money for 3 quests ago, but if it never drops i don't see how the hero is OP over the OL. The OL on the other hand has a whole pool of spells, monsters, traps and w/e else he has in his sleeve to throw at the heroes at every single turn, and if you'll say "but bringweed, the OL has a whole deck of card to draw from", then i'll tell you that you can reduce it to a number of 15 (most powerfull or w/e you like) if you don't know how to put to good use every card in the game and increase your chance of draw. It is indeed true that later in the game a hero can one shot almost every monster on the map, but he OL should not play to have monsters alive on the map at the end of the day and try kill the heroes, because that is never the objective. The OL should always look at his monsters as a meat wall that can throw a punch at the heroes and make them feel hurt a little step by step. I think that a good OL will always look at what he has and think his moves 3-4-10 turns away in advance and always know what the heroes will do. As the OL, i would say your greatest weapon is not your "advancement" in terms of spells, monsters and w/e else the OL has in hand, but a great mind to help put to good use those means of making the heroes suffer. 

 

Hope this helps, just my opinion on the topic. Cheers. 

 

First of all, please, use interpunctation and line breaks. No offense.

Second, you should try it a few times. You will see, that you will eventually get steamrolled, after the heroes get the three dice weapons in act 2. Just saying.

 

@ Dalthor-san:

Get yourself as much three dice weapons as possible and DO NOT LET YOU DISTRACT, than you will win.



#22 Silverhelm

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

Well I can say this I love this game a lot it has great potential(can't wait for exspansions).  I agree the OL does benifit from a variety of options those options however in my opinion aren't as good as the heroes. My group is very exsperianced with games like this,we consider the game play tested( and we played more then one game). We play games workshop games, video games, many many games. My 4 hero buddies are very good at games and we are all very competitive. The game is very evenly matched in the begining ( even condition cards). But somewhere between mid and on the favor falls to heroes. There's a point where conditions, KO's, don't make much diffrance and a hero player that sees that is going to understand that OL cards will no longer be as good as hero loot/skills. It's good there is act two monsters but what this game really needs is (also) act 2 conditions, act 2 KO rules. I really don't care if I get the loot for my splig or Belthir ect. Anybody who has ever played warhammer 40k or warhammer fantasy know relying on a hero to do much is asking for to much. With the awesome goals in this game hindering heroes after act 2 to win a goal does feel like your just slowing them down, or getting in there way. My wife and I are playing a two player game right now (campaign ). She hasn't got very lucky with loot in town other then leoric( he has magma blast,leather armor,scorpion helm,(skills) Ghost armor,exploding rune,and Runic knowledge. And let me tell you this guy is nasty for me right now and we will be on act 2 in 2 quests. This guy with Avric and Reynhart are a force to be reckoned with( my wife wanted to play three heroes instead of two). Avric has his normal gear and Aurium Mail, and my group (even with just me and wife) always takes Disciple class. And her champion is sporting leather armor. Two classes with nasty passive ability and leoric on his way to god hood is bad news. Once Reynhart gets his act 2 stick of death it's going to be really tough. My act one is not going well let me tell you but I like the challenge of this it brings me back for more. Sorry about this huge paragraph but I'm on a iPod and I can't figure out how to enter like a computer yet. One more thing the end game is fun trying to kill these guys dead, but if your struggling to KO them before this point to drawl that extra card, or whatever reason for all I can say is good luck I enjoy trying.



#23 poet1001

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

+1 to DocPanic

I absolutely agree that heroes are really over powered, especially when you are playing against 4 heroes. Me and my playing group were really surprised when FF nerfed OL even more with the last FAQ. I also agree that OL is not enough rewarded, and the time between quests (when playing campaign) is not that fun for the OL as for the heroes.

Just as an example - in our last campaign, Grisban (berserker), had an axe from second act shop which gives two red dice, he basically could (and actually did couple of times) kill a red dragon with a single hit. Desciple would buff him with a yellow dice so Grisban rolled: 1 yellow, 2 red, 1 blue. Then he also added surg from the wepon mastery ability that he had. The amount of damage he could inflict was just devastating.

Aditionally all hereos were armed to the teath as Tomble playing as a thiev managed to collect 95% of treasures. Heroes could purchase everything they wanted and in the end they even had unspent gold.

In the campaign I mentioned I was playing for one of the heroes and it was really not enough challenge for me….

So I would also ask FF not to nerf OL anymore but instead add some more options and tools to deal with heroes.

 

 



#24 Xrm

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:06 PM

Yeah, I've had these problems, too. It's really unfortunate that there's very little the OL can do about these things. It makes it a lot less fun for everyone if nothing is dangerous to the heroes (and when if there was something dangerous, they could just kill it in one turn anyway). They deal huge damage, they can often reroll if they don't like the results, and even if I manage to kill them all that does is slow them down for a single turn! This is not helped by the fact that I play with a bunch of min-maxers, but still, I should at least be able to min-max, too!

There are a few master monsters which are interesting (especially in the conversion kit) but it's very frustrating that I can't even use their interesting special abilities because they die so quickly! I don't even think my players know most of their special abilities because they have never seen some of them used!

It would be really nice if there was an Overlord-centric expansion that would give more options to the Overlord. It would be great if I could, say, equip a master monster with a special weapon, or give him a card that would give him a permenant increase in HP or defence or damage or something. Or have some kind of enviornmental obsticle or something. 



#25 DocPanic

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

Xrm said:

It would be really nice if there was an Overlord-centric expansion that would give more options to the Overlord. It would be great if I could, say, equip a master monster with a special weapon, or give him a card that would give him a permenant increase in HP or defence or damage or something. Or have some kind of enviornmental obsticle or something. 

Yes, exactly! Making a Overlord Pack would be great! Giving all Red monsters a bonus!

@poet101:

Yes, at least in act 2 the heroes can literally kill everything whenever they want. And the Overlord is just feeling unimportant. The monster in act 2 MUST be getting better, by far, if the game should be balanced.

Nobody can say, that with just common sense the heroes just become killing machines in act 2. A Red Dragon should be more then just a one round obstacle. And eve if it survives it just cant do anything important, since it cant kill a hero alone.

Damn, it is a red Shadow DRAGON!!


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#26 DocPanic

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:41 PM

To clearify:

I would like the Overlord to have a chance to boost his monsters permanently with some Equippment he is using. Like always one HP more (which would be not very much) or making more damage. This could be realised with a set of OL cards which he can by and lay out in front of him, like a Hero Skill Card, or only stuff them to a group of monsters.



#27 SolennelBern

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:17 AM

I now have a really nice set od D1E: Base game + AoD + ToI + WoD + RtL + Quest compendium.  

 

I read the rules yesterday and  many got ported to D2E but some not.  I can also see how D1E is the "better" game when comparing to LOS and decisions/options available during a turn.

 

I can also see how D1E is more bloody when you check the quests and what each side must do to win.  I think i'm gonna love D1E quite a lot.

 

Concerning D2E I still like this game for it's short playtime (when I don't want to wake up the next morning with red eyes and a permanent yawn) and the dungeon crawl fix it give me.  I really love the art direction and the way the campaign flows.

 

I do hope that one of the future expansion will give the OL more options and more punch cause he deserves it much more then any other bad guy :P



#28 DocPanic

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:55 AM

[...]

I do hope that one of the future expansion will give the OL more options and more punch cause he deserves it much more then any other bad guy :P

+1

Totally agree.

In fact, I think, that the Overlord is a good guy, giving the Heroes a formidable oponent and a enjoyable evening. So please give him more choices, more punch!


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#29 Big Cigar

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:02 PM

Simple things OL can do VS 4 opponents, I've used this to great effect so far.

 

1. Always chose large monsters

 

2. Flame breath is your biggest DD skill, so stack your deck with very specific skills to maximize this: use the first half of a quest to pull most of your deck with "Unholy Ritual" and in the second half play:

 

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

- Rise Again

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

 

This will give you like 8 attacks with your flame breath monster, even if they have huge DPS. Some will hopefully will proc flame breath, when this hits throw down "Critical Blow" and "Dark Might" to boost damage and you can often wipe the party...

 

3. In my experience OL has major problems winning most of act I. Just try to deny search tokens until act II when your DPS can actually reliably keep hero's down.

 

4. Unfortunately, I've found because hero's have way more skills that stack on each other, they often are accidentally exploited to be more powerful then they actually are. This means that OL needs to know the rules twice as well as the hero's and lawyer the **** out of them if they are to be successful. One or Two misunderstood hero abilities can completely ruin an OL's chances.

 

5. Notice that you will do better during the beginning of act I and act II as your monster are stronger in relation to the hero's. If you can, choose quests with better rewards (expansion quests especially) at the beginning of the acts. 

 

If there is mercy in your heart you will never win, the hero's in this game are extremely resilient.


Edited by Big Cigar, 07 July 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#30 Robin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:38 AM

You may not play an OL card twice on the same figure.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#31 poet1001

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:55 AM

2. Flame breath is your biggest DD skill, so stack your deck with very specific skills to maximize this: use the first half of a quest to pull most of your deck with "Unholy Ritual" and in the second half play:

 

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

- Rise Again

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

 

As Robin already mentioned OL cannot play the same ability twice on the same target. So if you have been playing like this - you have been playing incorrectly.

I really do not see how OL can play against Grisban as a berserker, who has 18 health, black (act 2 armor) and grey defensive dice, 4  stamina (trinket that adds 1 stamina), and the act 2 axe with two red dice. It is an undying, unstopable killing machine that can literally kill a red dragon with a single hit. And additionaly has 3 supporters who can heal, DMG, loot....

 

 



#32 Robin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:08 AM

I would consider, too, that direct confrontation is not always the best way to go.

If the OL can slow down the heroes, hinder their actions, etc. he can win quests which have a "race against the watch" aspect.

 

I have some doubts about general statements about the heroes or OL being OP: both are expressed by players who insist on their being experimented gamers.

It seems that, in Descent 2, a situation can suddenly swing in favour of one of the sides involved.

The factors can be luck, skilfull maneuver (or dumb move), the quest's favouring one or the other, a good combination of heroes and/or monsters in the specific situation, etc.

 

Up to now, I still cannot make up my mind about a possible general imbalance in the game.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#33 poet1001

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

I would consider, too, that direct confrontation is not always the best way to go.

If the OL can slow down the heroes, hinder their actions, etc. he can win quests which have a "race against the watch" aspect.

 

What I mean is that in some cases OL don't even have a chance to slow down the heroes as monsters that suppose to play a  "slow down" role are getting killed before they have a chance to do anything.

After several campaigns played, my opinion is that group of 4 heroes (taking into account that players are not complete idiots) leaves almost no chances for the OL to win.

 

 

Or may be is that just my group that consists of super smart tacticians =)))


Edited by poet1001, 08 July 2013 - 08:11 AM.


#34 Robin

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:52 AM

I read your opinion, which is based upon a good experience of the game.

I have read other players - who seem quite experimented too - saying that the OL is OP.

In my much lesser experience, I saw both OL and heroes steamroll their opponent and I also have seen quests being just won by a single dice roll.

There are so many factors involved that I would not just jump upon the conclusion that some players are idiots or geniuses...

 

What would be nice, would be a sort of online registering of games played - with details about conditions (campaign, heroes and monsters involved), so a general picture can be drawn about the global game balance.

It would not be an absolute way to measure things, and the more games are played, the more the picture will be interesting to study.

 

Such system exists for Advanced Squad Leader ("ROAR") and helps see what scenarios are balanced (or not).

Usually, no decisive conclusion can be drawn if a scenario was played less than 50 times.

 

I am quite sure that there are more Descent players than ASL ones, so such an online stats system could have some sense.


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An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#35 Kunzite

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:24 PM

After playing a full quest as the OL for Shadow Ruin, I feel I have a little experience. Just a wee bit. And enough to know that though I am the only girl in our group playing, no man will be throwing me from my thrown >}

 

So, I had one rather salty player and one loud mouth accusing me of being overpowered (at that point I had won enough to win Overlord Revealed) which landed me in a tricky place. I felt, as the GM/OL I should have some mercy, so I "gave" them back the shadow staff (giving them the staff of light) in the quest where they could get it back. Basically, I meant to lose that quest.

 

It was stupid. Stupid Stupid Stupid.

 

I lost the campaign because of it. BUT, in the long run, everyone is happier. I am a better loser of the bunch so I didn't mind. Will I try to lose again. NO. ^.~ I held their hand for Shadow Ruin. It's Labyrinth time and I am going to lay on the hurt.

 

For new OLs and their new groups, if you are having a hard time winning there might be a few reasons for that.

The OL has to remember ALLOT! I write everything down. I write down all their stats, all their skills and all their equipment.

I plan at least an hour in the week before playing it with them. (I'm a slow brewer, so I often take longer then an hour to look over a quest). I read on how others might have played a quest, or see what monsters others think are good. I write that down. Knowlage and planing are your best friend. Please look at the Wiki for any character and monster stats you might not have on hand.

 

Give your heroes time to plan together. Often times, in our group, the only time they have to plan is right before the quest because they all have to come together to do that. I suggested me putting in my headphones and letting me draw humiliating pictures of me smashing their faces in while they plan (yes, I do that. I am an artist. They tempt me. The best moment in our game play was when my etten was playing toss the scout. It is illustrated and it is beautiful. >} I'm evil). Having that time makes EVERYONE happy. I can't hear what they are saying and they can't hear what I am thinking. We are on level playing field. 

 

On the other hand, while playing, take note of everything being said and plan for it. Having a fist full of cards, a devilishly handsome grin and leaning forward in your seat can turn any game into your favor even if your hand is full of crap. I have stalled out two turns that way, no joke. Stalling is my specialty.

 

Have fun. If you can't do that in a campaign, then do some epic plays. Last night we did Frozen Spire. I SHOULD have won that one, but I chose Kobolds as my ambush group at the end of the game. Why? Because they are the stupidest monster group EVER! and I was dieing to use them where it didn't matter. We had allot of fun and laughed. It felt good to lose that because it was stupid and because it wasn't demanding on the long run.

 

If all this doesn't help, then maybe you aren't cut out to be the OL. There is nothing wrong with that. Trust me, it takes a spacial person to be evil. Be a hero, and let someone else bash your face in >} it might be better that way. But the fact remains. You HAVE ti have fun. If you can't do that, then you need a new game. Go play Arkham x.x


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#36 SolennelBern

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:44 AM

Kunzite...i'm very disappointed in your behavior!!!!!!! :P

Giving away a relic to those filthy do-gooder Heroes?!!??!?! Shame on you!

 

More seriously, I can understand your move especially when you have players accusing you of being OP...which IMO is completely ridiculous.  

 

How I see it:

- A good OL player will win against meh Hero players

- A meh OL player will lose against good Hero players

- When both sides are on equal grounds talent wise, both will have equal chances of winning.

 

MEH player: A meh player is either a new player discovering the game or simply a bad player that doesn't really understand it's role and what he have to do to win.  Example: Our last campaign our OL played to kill us most of the time, choosing huge monsters when small and quick monsters would be the best.  He didn't cared much about his objective and ended up winnin only one quest in the whole campaign.  I tried to make him understand that he should focus more on his objkective and not on the Heroes but it didn't do the trick.  Sure it was his first time with the game and i'm sure he'll get better.  He is our Mansions of Madness Keeper and he's merciless and really good!  So after our first campaign I think he understood what his role was and how to play the next time.

 

I'd say, play more one-shot quests so that everyone understand what the game is about and what you have to do in a quest to win.  Both sides have objectives and when you play the objective you get closer to winning.

 

Sure there's quests that lean towards one side but overall, if everyone play to their best, all will have a chance at winning.


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#37 Kunzite

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:03 AM

Kunzite...i'm very disappointed in your behavior!!!!!!! :P

Giving away a relic to those filthy do-gooder Heroes?!!??!?! Shame on you!

 


 

Sure there's quests that lean towards one side but overall, if everyone play to their best, all will have a chance at winning.

 

But... Ah... mah... *sits in corner of shame*

 

All in all, our first run was almost one for one. Heroes did badly act one (I cleaned the floor with their crippled bodies!) but act two opened up a whole new world for the heroes. Grim was a horrible act one character while act two I stayed as far away from him as I could, only attacking him with reach monsters. Even my Lut. where an arm's reach of him. They would have done circles around me even if I didn't give them the staff of light.

 

We have done a few Epic Quests before going into another campaign. I have tried other class cards and they have tried other characters. We have allot of characters to play around with since the new expansion came out and we got the conversion kit. If you guys think it's hard now, wait till they get their hands on some nasty heroes. But fear not! There was more dirty tricks with the OL cards.

 

Last advice. Getting quests with toys is nice, but not always the best root. Getting bigger and better cards (ie getting XP) might be what will win it for you. Most quests you win in this manner will also deprive your heroes of money. This is GOOD. More money=better toys for them. Trust me, you want them to hang onto that chipped ax for as long as you can.


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#38 AThulere

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:26 PM

+1 to DocPanic

I absolutely agree that heroes are really over powered, especially when you are playing against 4 heroes. Me and my playing group were really surprised when FF nerfed OL even more with the last FAQ. I also agree that OL is not enough rewarded, and the time between quests (when playing campaign) is not that fun for the OL as for the heroes.

Just as an example - in our last campaign, Grisban (berserker), had an axe from second act shop which gives two red dice, he basically could (and actually did couple of times) kill a red dragon with a single hit. Desciple would buff him with a yellow dice so Grisban rolled: 1 yellow, 2 red, 1 blue. Then he also added surg from the wepon mastery ability that he had. The amount of damage he could inflict was just devastating.

Aditionally all hereos were armed to the teath as Tomble playing as a thiev managed to collect 95% of treasures. Heroes could purchase everything they wanted and in the end they even had unspent gold.

In the campaign I mentioned I was playing for one of the heroes and it was really not enough challenge for me….

So I would also ask FF not to nerf OL anymore but instead add some more options and tools to deal with heroes.

I'm experiencing the same thing: 4 heroes (all female characters with better classes), all best weapons and armors from phase 1 (won every encounter, collected every item - > [yellow] rune blaster of minimum of 3 hp hit + reroll, [blue] stunner/healer, [red] armoured tank 3 armour dices with 3 rerolls and [green] fast ranged). Interlude to phase 2 took 13 h because they calculated every possible turn outcome, I made 1 mistake and then it was there (after 13 h).

 

As an OL I'm collecting Magnus. As an OL I'm being nerffed in every update. As an OL I gain no joy in this game.

 

'Yay all my dragons are one shotted' 'Yay all my monsters are stunned' 'Yay I made mistake and in their turn they win'

 

It is frustrang to play as OL when heroes are 'cloud computing' everything and killing 1 minion goblin archer takes 1 h.



#39 Robin

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:36 PM

Thirteen hours!
It seems you are confronted on a bunch of "thinker" type players.
Such slow play kills all the fun, IMO.
I would establish some time limits, in that quite extreme case.
An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
G. K. Chesterton

#40 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:42 PM

Right off the bat, I'll just go out and say I can't quite put a vote either way if the game is balanced or unbalanced. But that's entirely because of my gaming group, and not due to the game. But I choose to believe the game is balanced: y'all can bash on my opinion if you'd like.

 

My experience with this game has been one full run of Shadow Rune as OL, and about half a run through as a hero player. I should note I'm the self-appointed most tactical and strategical person in my group (ego needed a good waxing today).

 

As an OL, I admittedly play in a downgraded way by occasionally taking it easy on my heroes: yes it's a competitive game, but I think the fun factor is paramount. Some encounter are swayed towards OL, some heroes, but our group still maintained about a 50/50 split of OL to hero wins. On quests I do go easy, it's always only a little bit, but the heroes quickly avalanche to a point where even when I try to put the hurt on, they can wipe the floor with me. I like combat, so I usually go out of my way to perform it: maybe if I concentrated more on my objectives, I'd put the hurt on even more.

 

As a hero, I found we were pretty blasted. My OL actually played the game correctly, meaning she actively tried to win with every fiber of her essence. This was when I learned I wasn't a very good hero: as Geomancer and Necromancer (three person game with one OL and two players playing 2 heroes each), This campaign was also when we learned that heroes are not supposed to heal themselves of damage between quest encounters, and I absolutely hated it (our first campaign saw heroes incorrectly discarding all fatigue and damage between encounters). This has since been houseruled: even knowing it only benefits the heroes, I still think it's crappy even though I foresee myself being the OL in all our future campaigns. Anyways, we stopped this campaign halfway through because even though our OL has murdering us (and enjoying it) she felt being OL was too much work and preferred to be a hero.

 

I think this says a lot about the game, at least in my experience: a semi-competent OL can slaughter meh heroes. But in that same vein, I think if those heroes got better and learned from their mistakes (as we have), they'd definitely make the OL run for his money. Which would only make the OL get better. I think the balance restores itself.

 

My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D


Edited by JBouthietteJr, 09 July 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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