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Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)


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#181 modernman55

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:40 PM

Well it is looking like each Lt's summon plot card will be unusable in the campaign they are featured in. This is tidy I suppose from a rule/theme point of view, but it forces people to really get those expansions. I have been reluctant on getting Labyrinth since I relocated to a new town and am having trouble finding people who are interested in playing Descent.



#182 Kunzite

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:46 PM

Well it is looking like each Lt's summon plot card will be unusable in the campaign they are featured in. This is tidy I suppose from a rule/theme point of view, but it forces people to really get those expansions. I have been reluctant on getting Labyrinth since I relocated to a new town and am having trouble finding people who are interested in playing Descent.

 

Have you thought of finding a gaming store and see if they have a board game night? We go to a store sometimes to play and often have people ask if they can play with us. You might be able to find a group that way. Moving is hard ~.~ I have done so more times then I care to count.

 

Or try to find some nerdy friends at work haha ^.^;; I have been lucky in that way.


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#183 modernman55

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:18 PM

 

Well it is looking like each Lt's summon plot card will be unusable in the campaign they are featured in. This is tidy I suppose from a rule/theme point of view, but it forces people to really get those expansions. I have been reluctant on getting Labyrinth since I relocated to a new town and am having trouble finding people who are interested in playing Descent.

 

Have you thought of finding a gaming store and see if they have a board game night? We go to a store sometimes to play and often have people ask if they can play with us. You might be able to find a group that way. Moving is hard ~.~ I have done so more times then I care to count.

 

Or try to find some nerdy friends at work haha ^.^;; I have been lucky in that way.

 

Yeah I frequently attend FNM at the local game store. I keep pitching the idea to the other MTG players to join me on a day where we play Descent there, so far getting lukewarm responses. I will keep trying :)


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#184 Kunzite

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

You can do it! Drag them out by their ears and demand for them to learn the game, for you are the Overlord! Bwahaha! um...Maybe?

 

Maybe start them off with other games first? Play test magic not on friday and then choose a day everyone has allot of time and pull it out? First Blood is really friendly to the heroes. At least I think it is. It would give them a taste and most likely a victory. That's how my friend lured us into this... descent, if you will. it took time. I wouldn't have been into it if I had not played magic first, to be honest. And as much as I like Arkham with friends, it's was a well needed change of pace.


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

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#185 willmanx

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:51 PM

They might lose themselves while throwing too much new bits in the game : slow, complicated without subtility, and... More risk to be broken. I dońt really enjoy those new cards. I would prefer one premium box with all the lieutenant miniatures and no rules.

I think a dude who doesn't want to have lt miniatures won't change his mine because of those plot cards.

Edited by willmanx, 19 August 2013 - 02:53 PM.


#186 modernman55

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:49 PM

They might lose themselves while throwing too much new bits in the game : slow, complicated without subtility, and... More risk to be broken. I dońt really enjoy those new cards. I would prefer one premium box with all the lieutenant miniatures and no rules.

I think a dude who doesn't want to have lt miniatures won't change his mine because of those plot carI am

 

What I am wondered about is what exactly can the heroes use the fortune sides of the threat tokens on. The preview page had a brief list that included the heroes getting extra actions... that sorta sounds way too powerful in my opinion.



#187 Kunzite

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:54 PM

What I am wondered about is what exactly can the heroes use the fortune sides of the threat tokens on. The preview page had a brief list that included the heroes getting extra actions... that sorta sounds way too powerful in my opinion.

 

YES that is my point here! But I guess each fortune will cost x amount of tokens? Maybe, yes??

 

Maybe this is also why they are making OL reward cards in quests to help the deck while having a plot deck?


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#188 schmoo34

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 02:07 PM

I'm on my eighth campaign now.  6 of them, I was the OL. 

 

I've learned along the way the nifty tricks such as playing rumor cards VERY early in act I and Act II because that is when your monsters are the strongest.  I've also learned the value of dash, and avoiding blast.

 

ANd lastly, someone mentioned the Grisban effect, where he has 18 health and a black and grey die...with the latest expansions, it is more like 24 health and 2 black dice.  You have to just simply ignore that hero and move your minions around it.

 

I'm in one right now.

 

Nanok (champion), Grey (Wildlander), Sahla (Prophet), Reynhart (Berserker)

 

My butt gets handed to me every single mission. 

 

Normally, if it is Grisban, I can at least web trap him, but these heroes are strong.  Normally, I can loop them up with traps, but all of these have great awareness.  They rarely fail checks.

 

And that gets to my point in this.  Certain synergies of heroes, if the heroes know what they are doing, are unstoppable.  It matters not what cards I have or what tactics I use.

 

I feel that the conversion kit, while awesome, unbalances the game a lot.  And I mean that in both directions.  I just don't feel the combinations of skills and OPEs were well thought out vs. if you stick with the base game and the expansions and only use those heroes and monsters.

 

A well placed golem rocks for the OL just as much as Nanok rocks for the heroes. 

 

I do feel as if my being rewarded with a card is not much of a reward.  Many of the missions are won/lost in the first two opening moves and many of the times, I feel as if I could fare a better chance if I went first as the OL.

 

As it stands, I lose entire groups of monsters (you name them, they all die) before I can even take my turn.   Grey can spend one stamina to move two spaces...nothing I can do to stop him with a basic II deck (mistake on my part)...but let's say I did stop him...I can only stop him once.  Then my card is gone, and he can just do it again next turn.

 

The tenuous nature of a well played game is what I want and what anybody wants.  Getting steamrolled is not fun.  I keep investing in this game because I believe it can be fun.  I would like cards that allow me to overcome "reach" ability.  My shadow dragons are useless against reach. 

 

Someone mentioned "Only pick large monsters".  Large monsters just die quicker using less actions.  At least if I have kobolds, the heroes have to spend more actions killing them and it buys me more time.

 

I refer to my monsers as being made out of butter.  Because they are.

 

The trick to being the OL is to prevent early expansion.  To prevent the heroes from beefing up.  And perhaps the biggest issue I have is that once the snowball starts rolling down the hill, there is no mechanism to catch back up.  So being just 4 hours into a 20 hour campaign, you will already know if you are doing well or not...then there is no point in playing the remaining 16 hours.  And that is how it feels broken to me.


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#189 aniedrig

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:02 AM

I personally have never experienced that kind of problem. Me and my wife mostly switch being heroes and OL and we have played descent together (only 2 players) and with friends (3-5 players) and we never felt like the heroes are overpowered. we have played quite a couple of campaigns by now and tracking the score it was very nicely balanced thus far, i.e. both parties have won about equally often. In my experience, there are some quests that seem to slightly favor the heroes and others that favor the OL. But in the end of a campaign it seems to be fairly balanced.

 

therefore, based on my experience, I cannot share the same opinion as you and I must come to the conclusion that you might be doing something wrong, when playing the OL. Maybe you choose unsuited monsters, when you are allowed to choose an open group. maybe you forget to draw OL-cards, when knocking out heroes. maybe you don't play your cards in meaningful and powerful combos, which you can do very nicely.

 

And here is what might most likely be your problem, because we had that problem, too:

maybe (and that is often underestimated!!!) you do not concentrate on fulfilling your victory condition, but on knocking out heroes, which is most often NOT how you win the game (the same holds for heroes). read the victory condition carefully and concentrate on just that. most often you have to find something and run off the map. knocking out heroes will often only delay you from reaching your goal. knocking out heroes is NOT your goal or victory condition!


Edited by aniedrig, 05 December 2013 - 04:09 AM.


#190 rfisha

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:53 AM

Another point to add is to really utilise your monster abilities, some have really crippling special abilities.  As others have stated, always play to the objective and choose monsters to assist in that objective.  If you have to beat the heroes to pick up objective tokens, choose faster (and probably weaker) monsters.  Overlord cards used in combos are also crippling and game winning.

 

IMO the game gets better for the overlord with the expansions.  Plot decks add more to his/her arsenal, rumour cards add threat and the LoTR campaign is just more balanced I feel as well.  I prefer the basic 2 overlord cards as well, I find used in combinations can really add a lot of damage to the heroes.   



#191 Kunzite

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:08 AM

Someone mentioned "Only pick large monsters".  Large monsters just die quicker using less actions.  At least if I have kobolds, the heroes have to spend more actions killing them and it buys me more time.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I played half a campaign with my fiance with him playing four heroes. He pointed out to me that i have gotten into the habit of choosing all small monster groups more often. Matter of fact, till after the interlude, I had not chosen a large monster for my open group at all. My reasoning has been pretty simple. It takes more actions to kill all of them then a big and ugly. Also, if you add up all the health of smaller monsters in one group, it is normally more then the two large monsters (unless you have ice wyrms in your back pocket) you could have. You also get more hits in with more monsters versus a road block. Don't get me wrong, road blocks are important, but it should not be the end all to your strategy. With the advent of Plot decks, this should change a great deal for the OL and how he thinks about his open groups. There are more reasons for the OL ot knock down a hero vs. stall out on those "I must stall the heroes" missions. 

 

Just a little food for thought. 

 

 

I have no trouble with the snowball effect. Not yet. I have played 3 campaigns and are in the mist of one now. I keep a mindset that I need to keep making this as hard as I can for the heroes even if I will lose often. I make the best of my wins and losses. With minimum wins, I still did really good in LoR. Then again, LoR is my favorite campaign so far. Many of the quests feel closer and wins for either side can be right down to the wire. 


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#192 griton

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:33 AM

Nanok (champion), Grey (Wildlander), Sahla (Prophet), Reynhart (Berserker)

 

Normally, I can loop them up with traps, but all of these have great awareness.  They rarely fail checks.

 

Lets take a look at the Hero Attributes:

Willpower: 2, 3, 3, 4

Might: 4, 2, 2, 3

Knowledge: 2, 2, 3, 1

Awareness: 3, 4, 3, 3

 

Your party is really weak in Knowledge. Instead of using traps, focus on Overlord Cards and Quests that target their Knowledge (Often Magic cards). They also don't have a Mage (partly why they are low in Knowledge), so you don't have to worry about Blast (which makes the hordes of smaller monsters much more favorable for you, as you mentioned). Use them as blockades so that other monsters can focus on quest goals. 

 

With Basic II, 2 Warriors, and no mage, definitely make sure you utilize cards that affect Warriors and drop the ones that affect mages. 

 

It also looks like they are pretty solid on survivability and trap prevention (Perhaps you fell into a pattern with your previous Overlord attempts where you focused on attacking the heroes and slowing them with traps) so you may need to shake it up and play a bit differently. 


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#193 Cursain

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:00 PM

 

Matter of fact, till after the interlude, I had not chosen a large monster for my open group at all. My reasoning has been pretty simple. It takes more actions to kill all of them then a big and ugly. Also, if you add up all the health of smaller monsters in one group, it is normally more then the two large monsters (unless you have ice wyrms in your back pocket) you could have.

 

Insert Plot deck for Splig and card "Overfed".  Now throw in some Act II Kobalds and you're talking 60 total starting life (six 6 life minions and three 8 life masters), before the master kobalds split into TWO minions adding another 36 life.

 

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.


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#194 Kunzite

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:55 PM

 

 

Matter of fact, till after the interlude, I had not chosen a large monster for my open group at all. My reasoning has been pretty simple. It takes more actions to kill all of them then a big and ugly. Also, if you add up all the health of smaller monsters in one group, it is normally more then the two large monsters (unless you have ice wyrms in your back pocket) you could have.

 

Insert Plot deck for Splig and card "Overfed".  Now throw in some Act II Kobalds and you're talking 60 total starting life (six 6 life minions and three 8 life masters), before the master kobalds split into TWO minions adding another 36 life.

 

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.

 

 

In the same line of this thinking is ways to help keep your monsters alive with one life. Dark Fortitude and Infactor cards comes to mind first. There is also Marick's "Mystic Might". Keeping them on the field even for the heroes to take it down in the next attack is the heroes using up their action. Simple as that. Love it! 

 

Man, Cursian... that makes Splig's plot deck super awesome. 


"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#195 Cursain

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:35 PM

 

 

 

Matter of fact, till after the interlude, I had not chosen a large monster for my open group at all. My reasoning has been pretty simple. It takes more actions to kill all of them then a big and ugly. Also, if you add up all the health of smaller monsters in one group, it is normally more then the two large monsters (unless you have ice wyrms in your back pocket) you could have.

 

Insert Plot deck for Splig and card "Overfed".  Now throw in some Act II Kobalds and you're talking 60 total starting life (six 6 life minions and three 8 life masters), before the master kobalds split into TWO minions adding another 36 life.

 

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.

 

 

In the same line of this thinking is ways to help keep your monsters alive with one life. Dark Fortitude and Infactor cards comes to mind first. There is also Marick's "Mystic Might". Keeping them on the field even for the heroes to take it down in the next attack is the heroes using up their action. Simple as that. Love it! 

 

Man, Cursian... that makes Splig's plot deck super awesome. 

 

 

That's just the frosting on the cake Kunzite.  Use the Plot card to bring Act 2 Splig on the board by replacing 1 of the master kobalds.  Then move and attack with all your kobalds, then use Splig's get them to give each an extra attack.  That's pretty much a guaranteed hero wipe-out considering Kobalds do so much damage due to Swarm.


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#196 Kunzite

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:31 PM

 

 

 

 

Matter of fact, till after the interlude, I had not chosen a large monster for my open group at all. My reasoning has been pretty simple. It takes more actions to kill all of them then a big and ugly. Also, if you add up all the health of smaller monsters in one group, it is normally more then the two large monsters (unless you have ice wyrms in your back pocket) you could have.

 

Insert Plot deck for Splig and card "Overfed".  Now throw in some Act II Kobalds and you're talking 60 total starting life (six 6 life minions and three 8 life masters), before the master kobalds split into TWO minions adding another 36 life.

 

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.

 

 

In the same line of this thinking is ways to help keep your monsters alive with one life. Dark Fortitude and Infactor cards comes to mind first. There is also Marick's "Mystic Might". Keeping them on the field even for the heroes to take it down in the next attack is the heroes using up their action. Simple as that. Love it! 

 

Man, Cursian... that makes Splig's plot deck super awesome. 

 

 

That's just the frosting on the cake Kunzite.  Use the Plot card to bring Act 2 Splig on the board by replacing 1 of the master kobalds.  Then move and attack with all your kobalds, then use Splig's get them to give each an extra attack.  That's pretty much a guaranteed hero wipe-out considering Kobalds do so much damage due to Swarm.

 

 

And the OL is under powered my backside. Just as I thought, though. Plot decks will limit how you build your normal OL deck, but I am finding the trade off is more then alright. 


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"Bide your time and hold out hope."

~Count of Monte Cristo

 

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#197 Silverhelm

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:54 PM

I'm on my eighth campaign now. 6 of them, I was the OL.

I've learned along the way the nifty tricks such as playing rumor cards VERY early in act I and Act II because that is when your monsters are the strongest. I've also learned the value of dash, and avoiding blast.

ANd lastly, someone mentioned the Grisban effect, where he has 18 health and a black and grey die...with the latest expansions, it is more like 24 health and 2 black dice. You have to just simply ignore that hero and move your minions around it.

I'm in one right now.

Nanok (champion), Grey (Wildlander), Sahla (Prophet), Reynhart (Berserker)

My butt gets handed to me every single mission.

Normally, if it is Grisban, I can at least web trap him, but these heroes are strong. Normally, I can loop them up with traps, but all of these have great awareness. They rarely fail checks.

And that gets to my point in this. Certain synergies of heroes, if the heroes know what they are doing, are unstoppable. It matters not what cards I have or what tactics I use.

I feel that the conversion kit, while awesome, unbalances the game a lot. And I mean that in both directions. I just don't feel the combinations of skills and OPEs were well thought out vs. if you stick with the base game and the expansions and only use those heroes and monsters.

A well placed golem rocks for the OL just as much as Nanok rocks for the heroes.

I do feel as if my being rewarded with a card is not much of a reward. Many of the missions are won/lost in the first two opening moves and many of the times, I feel as if I could fare a better chance if I went first as the OL.

As it stands, I lose entire groups of monsters (you name them, they all die) before I can even take my turn. Grey can spend one stamina to move two spaces...nothing I can do to stop him with a basic II deck (mistake on my part)...but let's say I did stop him...I can only stop him once. Then my card is gone, and he can just do it again next turn.

The tenuous nature of a well played game is what I want and what anybody wants. Getting steamrolled is not fun. I keep investing in this game because I believe it can be fun. I would like cards that allow me to overcome "reach" ability. My shadow dragons are useless against reach.

Someone mentioned "Only pick large monsters". Large monsters just die quicker using less actions. At least if I have kobolds, the heroes have to spend more actions killing them and it buys me more time.

I refer to my monsers as being made out of butter. Because they are.

The trick to being the OL is to prevent early expansion. To prevent the heroes from beefing up. And perhaps the biggest issue I have is that once the snowball starts rolling down the hill, there is no mechanism to catch back up. So being just 4 hours into a 20 hour campaign, you will already know if you are doing well or not...then there is no point in playing the remaining 16 hours. And that is how it feels broken to me.

Ill chime in on a few things monster choices are situational, OL deck also. Large and small monsters are good in different situations. As Kunzite pointed out you can achieve more hp from small monsters then you can large. But lets take SD's in early game they can be better on paper they have less hp's as mentioned but striving for power heroes vs a early SD can have more hp if they fail to wound it due to there ability if they miss a few times that SD mathematically has more hp then even Kobalds (again all situational there isn't a guarantee). If hp is really that important. Thank of it this way x amount of hp with a shield or x amount of hp without.

Not all things mathematically is certain. Even if something looks good on paper math doesn't factor in chance or randomness. Sometimes "the chance of" is better. Look at scouts on paper they look squishy but there speed and fatigue alone makes up for their squishiness in a game where hero actions are important.

You didn't really make wrong choices,in a situational game your choices didnt work out is all. Math didnt make those heroes your playing against powerful chance did. Sometimes this game can snowball in OL or hero favor. I wouldn't completely blame CK because it happens from time to time without it. I don't know how often it happens with it. That would be some interesting data/facts.

I also agree with you on the CK as someone once said on this forum the CK is gimmicky and was made really for the D1 players so they feel they didnt waist their money on D1. I don't think a whole lot of "balance" was on the mind when they made it.

Anyways that's my two cents..

Edited by Silverhelm, 05 December 2013 - 06:50 PM.


#198 griton

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 10:44 AM

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.

This is often negated by someone having blast, but if you don't have a hero with it, they can be pretty awesome.

 

 

Math didnt make those heroes your playing against powerful chance did.

FYI: Chance IS math. There are entire sub-fields of mathematics dedicated to the study of chance (Probability Theory, Probability and Statistics, Chaos Theory, etc) and they are incredibly deep and complex fields that few people properly understand. A lot of people see "chance" and immediately think "Well, there's randomness, so you can always just blame any balance issues on that because of <insert anecdotal evidence here> which proves that nothing is guaranteed and since it happened to me then it must not be that unlikely."

 

Is there a chance that no matter which cards you take that you'll always roll a miss on the die while the heroes always roll max damage? Absolutely. Is it likely? Absolutely not. Every game of chance always has odds, and if you properly understand the odds, you can see where balance lies, but dismissing everything to the gods of chance is naive and, to be frank, insulting to both the designers and skilled players of ANY game that involves randomness. There are always decisions that can be made to tip the odds in your favor, and it is possible to make the wrong choice, even when there is randomness. 



#199 Silverhelm

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:43 PM

I used to think taking lots of small monsters wasn't as good as large monsters but quickly found that the hero's most valuable asset is their Two Actions.  Make them burn through actions and focus on the mission as the OL and you will win as your deck becomes more powerful.

This is often negated by someone having blast, but if you don't have a hero with it, they can be pretty awesome.
 
 

Math didnt make those heroes your playing against powerful chance did.

FYI: Chance IS math. There are entire sub-fields of mathematics dedicated to the study of chance (Probability Theory, Probability and Statistics, Chaos Theory, etc) and they are incredibly deep and complex fields that few people properly understand. A lot of people see "chance" and immediately think "Well, there's randomness, so you can always just blame any balance issues on that because of <insert anecdotal evidence here> which proves that nothing is guaranteed and since it happened to me then it must not be that unlikely."
 
Is there a chance that no matter which cards you take that you'll always roll a miss on the die while the heroes always roll max damage? Absolutely. Is it likely? Absolutely not. Every game of chance always has odds, and if you properly understand the odds, you can see where balance lies, but dismissing everything to the gods of chance is naive and, to be frank, insulting to both the designers and skilled players of ANY game that involves randomness. There are always decisions that can be made to tip the odds in your favor, and it is possible to make the wrong choice, even when there is randomness.

Probability is a better word then chance ill give you that. I never said you couldn't tip the scales in this game. In fact I never said this game was left up to a "god" in anyway. I work with math on a daily bases I think I know how it works or I wouldn't get paid for it lol. There is math in it of course dice, the odds of drawing the right card ect. Ect.

Nobody is going to come to your house and play this game with you if your sitting there doing the math on every little thing was my point. I wasn't selling you a religion. No if there is confusion there is no if I walk outside my house what's the probability of me getting hit by a car moments in this game at all oh no. What I was saying sometimes the result of what can or could happen is better then what the odds are otherwise there would be no skills,no abilities ect.

If I believed this was a game of "chance" or pure "randomness" there isn't such a thing as a skilled player in this game lol. It would be more like Talisman maybe. Even that isn't 100% randomness but man there sure is a lot.

Hey I can google things up or check the errata/FAQ page all day too if I wanted..Oh I'm sure their (developers) all grown boys/gals now and wouldn't get there feelings hurt so easliy.

#200 DocPanic

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 07:58 AM

I was a little while off, so I lost the turn of events, in this discussion I started^^.

Sorry about that.

 

In the meanwhile I bought the Labyrinth expension and I must say I am doing much better as OL! :) The only thing is that I don't let the players choose Tara, Syndrael, and the Bow woman (which makes extra speed, just forgot her name).

Since these two seem to be able to hit too fast and too hard.

 

As mentioned I am only concentrated on the mission, never on knocking heroes down, if this is not part of the goal.

 

I have a big question (since I am playing the german game, I might just be mislead), but what are the Plot cards? And when are they coming into play (and in which expansion?).

 

And would you suggest playing with rumor cards and the whole stuff entailed with the first expansion?






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