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Operate (Aeronautica) for using a Grav Chute?


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#1 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:34 AM

I've looked at Drop Troops and their Grav Chutes and I just don't agree with the use of the Operate (Aeronautica) skill.  This is the skill at flying the Valkyrie - which no Guardsman should have (let the Navy do the flying). Sure, true Jump Packs use the Operate (Aeronautica) skill, but those allow actual flight (for a short time) while the Grav Chute just lets you make a controlled fall. Way back in DH Grav Chutes used Acrobatics as the skill to land. I think that this is a better option.

I intend to replace Operate (Aeronautica) with Acrobatics in the description of the Grav Chute and to switch the starting skill for Drop Troops from Operate (Aeronautica) to Acrobatics. In addition to being more fitting, Acrobatics is likely to be a more useful skill to a Guardsman since they are not supposed to know how to fly aircraft and their opportunities for doing so are likely going to be very rare in any event.


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#2 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

HappyDaze said:

I've looked at Drop Troops and their Grav Chutes and I just don't agree with the use of the Operate (Aeronautica) skill.  This is the skill at flying the Valkyrie - which no Guardsman should have (let the Navy do the flying). Sure, true Jump Packs use the Operate (Aeronautica) skill, but those allow actual flight (for a short time) while the Grav Chute just lets you make a controlled fall. Way back in DH Grav Chutes used Acrobatics as the skill to land. I think that this is a better option.

I intend to replace Operate (Aeronautica) with Acrobatics in the description of the Grav Chute and to switch the starting skill for Drop Troops from Operate (Aeronautica) to Acrobatics. In addition to being more fitting, Acrobatics is likely to be a more useful skill to a Guardsman since they are not supposed to know how to fly aircraft and their opportunities for doing so are likely going to be very rare in any event.

 

In the desscription of operating vehicles it reads like they assume you are capable of operating anything outside of combat or advanced maneuvering. So that is to say that on a clear sky with no enemy contact a Guardsmen without ranks in Operate Aeronautica can more or less hold a stick straight and fly even until the pilot takes back over. A Guardsmen with ranks in Operate Aeronautica would actually be able to take off and land in a non-combat situation and would be able to maneuver in combat. 

 

Having jumped out of real life aircraft Operate Aeronautica is more appropriate than Acrobatics. Acrobatics is the ability to control and contort your body and while that does play a role in sky diving it doesn't take into consideration your knowledge of Aerodynamics, fall rates, reading altimeters, and the actually Techy functions of the Grav chute itself. not to mention there is a talent that gives you llike a whopping +40 to Operate Aeronautica when using Grav chutes. but like I said, Acrobatics is only a part of the skills utilized within the Operate Aeronautica skill to safely make a Grav drop

 

I mean, I guess my solution would be to say that anybody with operate aeronuatica in a drop regiment doesn't necessarily know how to "fly" anything other than a grav chute, but if they had an intelligence of 35 or over (or whatever you dictate) they do know how to fly other Aeronautica. 



#3 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:03 AM

Acrobatics covers jumping from a height in a manner that reduces the risk of injury (this is enhanced by Catfall). I would think that this makes much more sense for a Drop Trooper than being able to pilot Marauders, Thunderhawks, and Gun Cutters all of which are part of Operate (Aeronautica).

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#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:05 AM

As for the Talent you mention, it would obviously be switched to providing its bonus on Acrobatics tests rather than Operate (Aeronautica) so its existence is a moot point.

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#5 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

HappyDaze said:

As for the Talent you mention, it would obviously be switched to providing its bonus on Acrobatics tests rather than Operate (Aeronautica) so its existence is a moot point.

 

I get what your saying, but maintain that Operate Aeronautica would be more appropriate… I mean how does Acrobatics give you the knowledge of when to activate your gravchute, prevailing wind patterns, drop formations. Acrobatics would only come into play if you failed your operate aeronautica and came in a hard landing, which is where catfall would also help.



#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:04 PM

Magpie Stoner said:

 

HappyDaze said:

As for the Talent you mention, it would obviously be switched to providing its bonus on Acrobatics tests rather than Operate (Aeronautica) so its existence is a moot point.

 

 

I get what your saying, but maintain that Operate Aeronautica would be more appropriate… I mean how does Acrobatics give you the knowledge of when to activate your gravchute, prevailing wind patterns, drop formations. Acrobatics would only come into play if you failed your operate aeronautica and came in a hard landing, which is where catfall would also help.

 

 

Tests are only made when they matter. Acrobatics would cover any of the various body motions necessary when maneouvring and landing the grav chute. No Test is required for activating the Grav Chute itself (you can supposedly do it untrained with Agility - not with Intelligence). You'll also note that Acrobatics can be used untrained - which amounts to the same as the untrained Agility test that is another option in the RAW. Looking further at the whole package, it makes more sense to me for Acrobatics as it avoids the issue of every Drop Trooper being a 'pilot without an aircraft' that the current rules suggest. Hell, per RAW, every Drop Trooper is also an expert gunner on small spacecraft. Both of these aspects of operation are something that the Imperial Guard would NEVER be trained on - they are specifically the domain of the Imperial Navy.


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#7 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:35 PM

HappyDaze said:

Magpie Stoner said:

 

HappyDaze said:

As for the Talent you mention, it would obviously be switched to providing its bonus on Acrobatics tests rather than Operate (Aeronautica) so its existence is a moot point.

 

 

I get what your saying, but maintain that Operate Aeronautica would be more appropriate… I mean how does Acrobatics give you the knowledge of when to activate your gravchute, prevailing wind patterns, drop formations. Acrobatics would only come into play if you failed your operate aeronautica and came in a hard landing, which is where catfall would also help.

 

 

Tests are only made when they matter. Acrobatics would cover any of the various body motions necessary when maneouvring and landing the grav chute. No Test is required for activating the Grav Chute itself (you can supposedly do it untrained with Agility - not with Intelligence). You'll also note that Acrobatics can be used untrained - which amounts to the same as the untrained Agility test that is another option in the RAW. Looking further at the whole package, it makes more sense to me for Acrobatics as it avoids the issue of every Drop Trooper being a 'pilot without an aircraft' that the current rules suggest. Hell, per RAW, every Drop Trooper is also an expert gunner on small spacecraft. Both of these aspects of operation are something that the Imperial Guard would NEVER be trained on - they are specifically the domain of the Imperial Navy.

 

Space craft would be operate voidship… Also it requires special training to jump out of aircraft, I know, I was airborne and air assault. So basically you change it from one extreme to another, while yes giving them aeronautica would allow them to pilot things not normally within their purview (I still have a problem with Valkyries being strictly navy… Doesn't make any sense to me but whatever) to anyone with acrobatics being able to jump out of aircraft, or hell as you said acrobatics doesn't have to be trained so at that point anyone can do it.



#8 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

Magpie Stoner said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Magpie Stoner said:

 

HappyDaze said:

As for the Talent you mention, it would obviously be switched to providing its bonus on Acrobatics tests rather than Operate (Aeronautica) so its existence is a moot point.

 

 

I get what your saying, but maintain that Operate Aeronautica would be more appropriate… I mean how does Acrobatics give you the knowledge of when to activate your gravchute, prevailing wind patterns, drop formations. Acrobatics would only come into play if you failed your operate aeronautica and came in a hard landing, which is where catfall would also help.

 

 

Tests are only made when they matter. Acrobatics would cover any of the various body motions necessary when maneouvring and landing the grav chute. No Test is required for activating the Grav Chute itself (you can supposedly do it untrained with Agility - not with Intelligence). You'll also note that Acrobatics can be used untrained - which amounts to the same as the untrained Agility test that is another option in the RAW. Looking further at the whole package, it makes more sense to me for Acrobatics as it avoids the issue of every Drop Trooper being a 'pilot without an aircraft' that the current rules suggest. Hell, per RAW, every Drop Trooper is also an expert gunner on small spacecraft. Both of these aspects of operation are something that the Imperial Guard would NEVER be trained on - they are specifically the domain of the Imperial Navy.

 

 

 

Space craft would be operate voidship… Also it requires special training to jump out of aircraft, I know, I was airborne and air assault. So basically you change it from one extreme to another, while yes giving them aeronautica would allow them to pilot things not normally within their purview (I still have a problem with Valkyries being strictly navy… Doesn't make any sense to me but whatever) to anyone with acrobatics being able to jump out of aircraft, or hell as you said acrobatics doesn't have to be trained so at that point anyone can do it.

Check your rules:

1) Small spacecraft (including fighters and bombers the size of 747s) are covered under Aeronautica. Voidships only covers the multi-kilometer long big ships (this specialty is governed by Intelligence rather than Agility in Black Crusade, but some things seem to have been lost in the cut & paste).

2) Technically, grav chutes do not require training. You can already default the use of grav chutes to Agility per the special rules of the grav chute. If using a grav chute were based on Acrobatics, there wouldn't need to be a special exception.

So, based on the second point, my change isn't nearly as much of an 'extreme' as you suggest and actually requires less exceptions in the rules (it's always easier to remove an exception than to account for one).


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#9 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:39 PM

I think I've come to the conclusion that it would depend entirely on what kind of drop you were doing. If you were inded just jumping out of an aircraft and praying for the emperor to guide you safely to the ground then yes I suppose acrobatics would be appropriate, but if you were trying to do more complicated jumps similar to HALO or HAHO jumps that use an airfoil in real life then you would actually be steering the grav chute and I would dictate operate aeronautica to actually guide it into a specific landing zone.



#10 Routa-maa

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:09 PM

@HappyDaze

Why don't you use same thing FFG used to denote that Dark Eldar Beastmasters mostly use only hoverbords by using this simple thing

Operate (Surface [Hover])

So for your Drop Trooper regiment

Operate (Aeronautica[Grav Chute])

Don't know have anyone else noticed that little marking but with this you could narrow what things the players can operate.


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#11 HappyDaze

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:22 PM

Routa-maa said:

@HappyDaze

Why don't you use same thing FFG used to denote that Dark Eldar Beastmasters mostly use only hoverbords by using this simple thing

Operate (Surface [Hover])

So for your Drop Trooper regiment

Operate (Aeronautica[Grav Chute])

Don't know have anyone else noticed that little marking but with this you could narrow what things the players can operate.

Because I'd rather go with Arcrobatics - something that's still going to be of use to a Guardsman beyond the initial mission insertion. Face facts, Operate (Aeronautica) is really not a skill that's terribly useful to a Guardsman. Shoehorning grav chutes into it makes it so every paratrooper knows how to fly a plane (and small spacecraft too), and that's just not going to cut it for me. OTOH, the things that Acrobatics allows - mainly maneuvring and landing from aa fall - seem useful enough and I don't have a problem with Drop Troops having some ability at the other uses of Acrobatics (as aooped to the Operate option).


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#12 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:46 AM

HappyDaze said:

Routa-maa said:

 

@HappyDaze

Why don't you use same thing FFG used to denote that Dark Eldar Beastmasters mostly use only hoverbords by using this simple thing

Operate (Surface [Hover])

So for your Drop Trooper regiment

Operate (Aeronautica[Grav Chute])

Don't know have anyone else noticed that little marking but with this you could narrow what things the players can operate.

 

 

Because I'd rather go with Arcrobatics - something that's still going to be of use to a Guardsman beyond the initial mission insertion. Face facts, Operate (Aeronautica) is really not a skill that's terribly useful to a Guardsman. Shoehorning grav chutes into it makes it so every paratrooper knows how to fly a plane (and small spacecraft too), and that's just not going to cut it for me. OTOH, the things that Acrobatics allows - mainly maneuvring and landing from aa fall - seem useful enough and I don't have a problem with Drop Troops having some ability at the other uses of Acrobatics (as aooped to the Operate option).

 

Sounds to me like you're really just more interested in trying to rationalize getting Acrobatics more so than listen to any argument to the contrary.



#13 HappyDaze

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:36 AM

Magpie Stoner said:

 

HappyDaze said:

 

Routa-maa said:

 

@HappyDaze

Why don't you use same thing FFG used to denote that Dark Eldar Beastmasters mostly use only hoverbords by using this simple thing

Operate (Surface [Hover])

So for your Drop Trooper regiment

Operate (Aeronautica[Grav Chute])

Don't know have anyone else noticed that little marking but with this you could narrow what things the players can operate.

 

 

Because I'd rather go with Arcrobatics - something that's still going to be of use to a Guardsman beyond the initial mission insertion. Face facts, Operate (Aeronautica) is really not a skill that's terribly useful to a Guardsman. Shoehorning grav chutes into it makes it so every paratrooper knows how to fly a plane (and small spacecraft too), and that's just not going to cut it for me. OTOH, the things that Acrobatics allows - mainly maneuvring and landing from aa fall - seem useful enough and I don't have a problem with Drop Troops having some ability at the other uses of Acrobatics (as aooped to the Operate option).

 

 

 

Sounds to me like you're really just more interested in trying to rationalize getting Acrobatics more so than listen to any argument to the contrary.

 

 

I've been pretty clear since my original post that I intend to make this change in my games. I posted about it here for the benefit of those that like the idea and want to do the same. For those that don't like it, I don't really care what they do in their games.


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#14 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:40 AM

Oh so you were fishing for praise… Sorry I couldn't oblige.



#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:43 AM

Magpie Stoner said:

 

Oh so you were fishing for praise… Sorry I couldn't oblige.

 

 

You just go back to having your regiments of Drop Troops that can all fly spacefighters. I'm sure that your IRL experiences in jumping from aircraft have made you into an accomplished pilot too. Let me know when you break orbit.


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#16 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:10 AM

haha hey man, it's just a game.



#17 AtoMaki

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:07 AM

HappyDaze said:

Magpie Stoner said:

 

Oh so you were fishing for praise… Sorry I couldn't oblige.

 

 

You just go back to having your regiments of Drop Troops that can all fly spacefighters. I'm sure that your IRL experiences in jumping from aircraft have made you into an accomplished pilot too. Let me know when you break orbit.

Well, according to the Operate (Surface) Skill, your experiences to drive a civilian car also allows you to pilot a Leman Russ MBT/Land Speeder/Warlord Titan. IfyouknowwhatImean ;)



#18 Magpie Stoner

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

AtoMaki said:

Well, according to the Operate (Surface) Skill, your experiences to drive a civilian car also allows you to pilot a Leman Russ MBT/Land Speeder/Warlord Titan. IfyouknowwhatImean ;)

 

^This.



#19 Radwraith

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:04 PM

Magpie Stoner said:

I think I've come to the conclusion that it would depend entirely on what kind of drop you were doing. If you were inded just jumping out of an aircraft and praying for the emperor to guide you safely to the ground then yes I suppose acrobatics would be appropriate, but if you were trying to do more complicated jumps similar to HALO or HAHO jumps that use an airfoil in real life then you would actually be steering the grav chute and I would dictate operate aeronautica to actually guide it into a specific landing zone.

I think I would default to this as the best argument. Like Magpie, I have some IRL experience in this (I'm a Pilot). I think the problem most people have is with how many different vehicles are governed by the "operate" skill. Just because I can fly a Piper or Cessna does NOT make me ready to hop in the cockpit of an F-22 and take to the skies! (And these are both fixed wing aircraft!) Unfortunately, That's exactly how the system works! It's not even limited to this particular skill (Don't even get me started on "Tech use"!) Units that deploy primarily out of aircraft IRL (Such as the US army 101st airborne.) do much more than simply jump out of aircraft and hope for the best. The more technical HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) and HAHO (High Altitude High Opening) jumps have much more in common with actual flying than they do with simply "Landing right". It is therefore up to the GM to restrict their players from abusing these skills. I might suggest that the player in question be required to "Qualify" with a given vehicle type (As a Narrative roleplaying experience) before he can utilize the skill effectively (Perhaps treating it as a "Basic" skill until one qualifies for the vehicle in question.)  



#20 SwiftFox

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:40 PM

Which is why the Operate Skill should really be a Specialist Skill, much like Common Lore or Linguistics, with players selecting an appropriate field within Operate (i.e. Operate (Chimera) or Operate (Grav Shute)).  This makes much more sense based on Imperial Guard training as per fluff, as really everyone in this thread has already pointed out.  It also has the added plus that most other types of RPGs follow a similar convention (or at least allow for specialization with a particular vehicle).






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