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Corrupted Adeptus Sororitas


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#41 MKX

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 07:21 PM

Oh, I have the same "numerical problems" with Marines, don't you worry :)

It's not so much the implication that yeah, you don't need them on every world, but more the actual "impact" on anything regarding a military activity is at best, a small, force multiplier like a special forces like SAS guys blowing up Scuds or Seal's shooting Osama.

If you need them to be a small, interesting special forces group to make them appealing from a story telling perspective or even a larger, galaxy spanning fighting force for the same reasons they both have their place. Heck at the end of the day when I run/play something, it's not games workshops, its mine and yours to do what we need to.

It is at this point I shall hide in the bunker before they send in lawyers & deathstrike missiles :P



#42 MKX

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 08:00 PM

Back on topic-

Currently I have one of my characters called 'Polemic' who is a fallen sister that I made up as something of a reaction to rubbish-fluff writing and awful tropes.

 

Basically, in the process of dealing with a certain daemonic incusion she found all her sisters where murdered by Grey Knights and worn as bloody facepaint, she quit because none of these activities is proscribed in the Dept Munitorium OH&S manual for murdering and using your allies bodily fluids as facepoint or anything else. Even in conditions deemed extremely dire by the Inquisition. Also at this point, the difference between the bad guys and the other bad guys became increasingly blurry to the point none of it made sense from an employment perspective.

So working for one, or the other, its all the same apparently, except that in the 'Welcome to Chaos' primer to new starters, its completely fine to murder the odd fellow employee if it means a deadline gets completed, getting in touch with 'the management' or even as an incentive by shooting 1 in 10, so the remaining 9 get stuff done quicker.

 

In later reflection this was probably a better career move because at least on the other side she hasn't ever had rely on some dopey but apparently super-competent bloke turning up to always save her at the last minute in some touching, but functionally retarded and mysogynistic douchebag final scenes. So far she has also not at any point ended up ever being tied to railroad tracks or been rendered completely helpless in some state of partial or complete undress at any stage of her adventures... and also recieves equal influence in story lines.

 

This is mostly because she has a big gun that fires explosive bullets, a huge power hammer and wears hulking big arse power armour, when it becomes past a joke or inappropriate touching in the work place is involved, it can and does end extreamly badly for the other people concerned, re: Section 1A: Murdering your fellow employees for fun & profit


Edited by MKX, 11 September 2013 - 08:01 PM.


#43 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 07:34 PM


Back on topic-

Currently I have one of my characters called 'Polemic' who is a fallen sister that I made up as something of a reaction to rubbish-fluff writing and awful tropes.

 

Basically, in the process of dealing with a certain daemonic incusion she found all her sisters where murdered by Grey Knights and worn as bloody facepaint, she quit because none of these activities is proscribed in the Dept Munitorium OH&S manual for murdering and using your allies bodily fluids as facepoint or anything else. Even in conditions deemed extremely dire by the Inquisition. Also at this point, the difference between the bad guys and the other bad guys became increasingly blurry to the point none of it made sense from an employment perspective.

So working for one, or the other, its all the same apparently, except that in the 'Welcome to Chaos' primer to new starters, its completely fine to murder the odd fellow employee if it means a deadline gets completed, getting in touch with 'the management' or even as an incentive by shooting 1 in 10, so the remaining 9 get stuff done quicker.

 

 

So the Grey Knights blood insignia wasn't fine by her job description... But it IS fine to silence entire regiments of Imperial Guardsmen based on the suspicion that they'd "seen too much" or start witch-hunting pogroms in hive cities that end with many innocent lives being lost? Not to mention I think there was a short story where the Ecclesiarchy blesses bolter shells by spilling innocent blood over them.

 

Not to mention that "shooting 1 in 10 so the remaining 9 get stuff done quicker" is pretty much standard operating procedure for Imperial Commissars. And it doesn't always work; trigger-happy Commissars tend to 'die heroically in combat' suspiciously far from the front lines.

 

 

 

In later reflection this was probably a better career move because at least on the other side she hasn't ever had rely on some dopey but apparently super-competent bloke turning up to always save her at the last minute in some touching, but functionally retarded and mysogynistic douchebag final scenes. So far she has also not at any point ended up ever being tied to railroad tracks or been rendered completely helpless in some state of partial or complete undress at any stage of her adventures... and also recieves equal influence in story lines.

 

This is mostly because she has a big gun that fires explosive bullets, a huge power hammer and wears hulking big arse power armour, when it becomes past a joke or inappropriate touching in the work place is involved, it can and does end extreamly badly for the other people concerned, re: Section 1A: Murdering your fellow employees for fun & profit

 

None of which happen to the Battle Sisters, so you are deliberately applying sexist tropes to them where they do not in the source material. Sexist in both ways, mind; according to your post, Battle Sisters are nothing more than damsels in distress waiting to be rescued by big, strong men, while men are nothing more than sex-crazed molesters. Yes, the Sisters Repentia are mostly naked, although considering the flagellation and horrific battle wounds they suffer, not to mention carrying around a screaming chainsword nearly as big as they are, it doesn't sound like it's meant to be titillating. It probably isn't meant to be titillating when shirtless Chaos Cultists with their scars and tattoos and mutations run screaming into battle either.

 

Space Marines are stronger than most MEN, which is what many Sisters of Battle fans like to forget. They can't really be considered human anymore. Not to mention the Sisterhood is far better equipped and trained than the vast majority of the Imperium's fighting forces (read: the Imperial Guard) and are considered far more valuable by their higher-ups, despite (or perhaps because of) their martyrdom complex. And their faith is so strong it has a tangible effect on the battlefield, which is something even Marines cannot do. 

 

I kinda wish GW would just add female Marines, if for no other reason than to deprive whiny Battle Sisters fans of the "SEXISM" argument. It's getting old.

 

Although anyone dumb enough to try and feel up a Battle Sister without consent probably deserves what's coming to them.

 


Edited by Boss Gitsmasha, 15 September 2013 - 07:38 PM.

"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#44 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:59 AM

Although anyone dumb enough to try and feel up a Battle Sister without consent probably deserves what's coming to them.

 

Depressingly that nearly happened in a Dark Heresy game I was GM-ing. The rest of the acolytes were in a cell interrogating a heretic whilst the scummer was outside with the militant orders guard.

 

The conversation with the player went as follows:

"So...can I try hitting on her?"

"Seriously?"

"Yeah."

"Make a charm test."

[Dice roll]

"Make a toughness test."

 

The players emerged from the cell to find the sister militant stood exactly where she had been but the scummer curled up on the floor in a foetal position and whimpering in an extremely high-pitched voice.


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#45 Lynata

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:11 AM

So the Grey Knights blood insignia wasn't fine by her job description... But it IS fine to silence entire regiments of Imperial Guardsmen based on the suspicion that they'd "seen too much" or start witch-hunting pogroms in hive cities that end with many innocent lives being lost? Not to mention I think there was a short story where the Ecclesiarchy blesses bolter shells by spilling innocent blood over them.

 

I'd be more curious about how someone would actually manage to find out what happened there, or how this would end up only affecting a single person...?

I know a lot of people dislike the Bloodtide fluff - I guess I'm one of the few who just don't see the problem. "Fighting fire with fire: Inquisition does bad stuff for the greater good. More at eleven."

 

I think there may have been a more, hmm, elegant way to arrange for a fall. Yet again I find myself referring to Miriael Sabathiel - one of the very, very few ways I could imagine something like this to happen. Daemonic Possession of a dead or semi-dead body, potentially involving the merge of a Warp spirit with the body's memories and bits of personality to create a new amoral hybrid persona, might be another (assuming that this isn't what happened to Miriael during her captivity at the hands of the EC).

 

None of which happen to the Battle Sisters, so you are deliberately applying sexist tropes to them where they do not in the source material. 

 

Not in GW's source material, fortunately. Makes you wish all the outsourced products would treat them in a similar fashion...

 

 

"Make a charm test."

[Dice roll]

"Make a toughness test."

 

:lol:


Edited by Lynata, 16 September 2013 - 07:12 AM.


#46 MKX

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

Don't over-analyse it too much.

My quest for new character ideas took me to a lot of dark places:

Basically, think of it as a typically Australian mental twitch-reflex to reading a tonne of really bad new codex fluff, 40k novels so awful it made me die a little inside and artwork that is probably best described as massacre porn. What I do there is basically exaggerate and then piss-take to the point of comedy as a response.

 

So somewhere between the time the Blood Angels started bro-fisting the Necrons and pictures of mostly naked girls with 2-h chainswords being thrashed across a battlefield by a nun in armour with a horsewhip... my mind hit a critical mass of "What the **** am I looking at?", melted down and couldnt take any of it seriously, ever again. For the love of god/budda/emperor, don't take me seriously either :)



#47 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 02:42 PM

If all you need to be uncorruptible is lots of faith, half the Ecclesiarchy ahould be uncorruptible, as well as a good % of the civilian population.

 

There is actually no good reason for Sisters to be uncorruptible. Grey Knights you can justify with genetic engineering and hypnotechniques and warded whatevers -- but sisters don't have that and so it makes no sense.



#48 Lynata

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:21 PM

"Lots of faith" isn't enough - extreme amounts of blind faith and conviction, the sort of mindset you can generally only engender in a closed and isolated environment where members of a religious group support and control each other under a strict set of rules and regulations, as well as avoiding the temptations that come with "normal life" and contact with the outside world, where a mind may be exposed and opened to "impure" ideas.

 

"Half the Ecclesiarchy" doesn't live in isolated convents dominated by a penitent regime embracing the concepts of humility and altruism, and neither does "a good percentage of the civilian population", so their minds are more open and liberal (or shall we say: concerned with matters of everyday life), and thus also more prone to corruption. Obviously, that doesn't mean that there cannot individuals within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy or the general populace who may be called incorruptible as well - it is merely not common enough to be any sort of rule, and depends heavily on the individual's chosen lifestyle and local culture.

 

"Corruption" is exploitation of questions and aspirations. If neither are present, then there is nothing where corruption can reliably take root. You can regard it as a struggle between two forms of pressure (doubt versus conviction) fighting for control over the soul, and the Sisters simply live in a very strict and intimate environment where the latter is supported more than the former.

 

If that still doesn't make sense to you, then I suppose that's that.



#49 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:38 AM

I'm pretty sure significant members of the Ecclesiarchy do live in issolated monastaries embracing the concepts of humility and altruism.

 

Wait -- ALTRUISM? That is the polar opposite of Sisters. I'll accept "selflessness", as it "we selflessly but very nonaltrusstically burned the population of the planet."

 

Anyway, making Sisters incorruptible basically makes them nonhuman. Which is why it is lame. :)

 

It is also completely opposed to the Pop Middle Ages in Space Theology of 40K. The whole point of Pop Middle Ages in Space Theology is that everyone is corruptible. Otherwise you would not need Space Jesus.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 22 September 2013 - 12:43 AM.


#50 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:55 AM

Just to flesh out that last bit here. The 40K "ethos" is based on the Dark Ages, or more accurately the Dark Ages as it is imagined in British pop culture (which is why standard British Protestant anti-Catholic tropes show up in it all the time -- this would be a very different universe if it had been invented by Spaniards. Anyway, I digress.).

 

The Emperor is Space Jesus. Chaos is Space Satan. The Imperial Creed is Space Catholicism. Space Satan is always trying to tempt the Space Catholics away from Space Jesus with his honeyed words, saying that if they turn their backs on Space Jesus and sell him their warp essence er immortal  soul, he will give them worldly power. Space Catholics are weak, and hence they need faith in Space Jesus and the Space Saints to protect them. But even the slightest misstep or doubt can give Space Satan an opening.

 

Saying a Space Catholic is incorruptible = saying he or she has no free will = saying he or she is not human.

 

It's a sin actually in the historical quasi-source material..Pride. Thinking you are incorruptible is itself a sin that gives Space Satan an opening. For can you not use my dark ways if your soul is pure? C'mon, just try it.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 22 September 2013 - 12:57 AM.


#51 Athanatosz

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:39 AM

There was/is only one human who was/is truly immune to the temptation of the ruinous powers, but fighting against these powers that human is failed. Now he is half dead, half a guiding consciousness to mankind,and maybe half the way to become a true god. The clones of this very man, the primarch's  was corrupted and turned against each other.. Half of them become traitor and killed the other half (more or less). The clones of the clones the emperor finest soldiers was also corrupted... Brother killed brothers and when the dust sat down half the legions was under the influence of the ruinous powers. 

 

So regarding that there should be a chance not to be corrupted not immunity against it.

 

  • In the top of the most loyalist iceberg there are the Grey Knight's of course with a resist like 90%
  • under that there are the fan-girls of the emperor the adepta sororitas, the inquisitors, and other very dedicated individuals chaplains, priest's with exceptional faith and such others  resist like 75%-80%
  • the mid section could be the orphans of the Schola Progenium and the Adeptus Astrates. They are fostered to be loyal and be living icons of the imperium among others in faith. Resist is around 60-65%
  • the lower section is the dedicated and loyal servents of the imperium: Adeptus arbites, Guardsmans, some rouge traders, adepts and others Resist like 40-50%
  • In the water level there are the vast billions of regular, everyday citizens of the imperium, and of course the weak willed servants from the above level(s)   resist could be 20-30%
  •  Under the water you can find the scums of the imperium who can be miserably low both on intelligence and will power or be a criminal but not corrupted ( so far), pirates, hive gangers, and other criminals, corrupt (as a criminal)  officers, adepts and the likes resist is like 10%-20%

To corrupt someone could take time but demons and chaos gods has all the time they need.....


Edited by Athanatosz, 22 September 2013 - 01:40 AM.

 "I am determined to prove a villain

    And hate the idle pleasures of these days."

 

KING RICHARD III


#52 Lynata

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:07 AM

bogi_khaosa, you seem pretty sure of a lot of things, but they are not in the books that the GW team has written, which is what I'm operating on. Our interpretations of the setting may simply be incompatible.
 
As I said, if you simply prefer a lesser version of the Sororitas and/or are unable to accept the original fluff for supposedly not "making sense", then go with what you like more. For better or worse, 40k as a franchise allows each of us to cherrypick our vision of the 41st millennium according to our personal preferences.
 
What *I* find lame is when the Sisters of Battle are made too human, as if they're nothing but "Guardsmen +1", but I can't force my preferences upon you, just like you can't force yours on mine. The only solution then is to agree to disagree.  ;)
 
 
I would, however, like to point out that another "whole point of pop middle ages in space theology" is also that corruption can be avoided if you're faithful enough.
 
"Prayer cleanses the soul, pain cleanses the body."
- Confessor Ganinimus
 
In fact, I need only to point to the three possibly most well known prayer-words of the IP:
 
"The Emperor Protects"
 
Pretty sure this is an all-inclusive deal, as far as the Ecclesiarchy is concerned. Someone who fell / got corrupted / turned traitor would generally be judged with the words "his/her faith was not strong enough". After all, the Emperor Himself needs to be beyond reproach, being their god, so who else could be the guilty party? What exactly differs the corrupted from the uncorrupted?
The idea that anyone, even the most faithful and devout, can get turned any moment, and that there is no protection against the Ruinous Powers at all, is, to me, utterly alien to what the Imperial Creed is about.
 
Or Catholicism, for that matter. You're not really trying to tell me that stuff like Exorcism or the prayers to St. Michael have nothing to do with fighting corruption, do you?  :huh:

Edited by Lynata, 22 September 2013 - 02:08 AM.





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