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Corrupted Adeptus Sororitas


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#21 Cifer

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 04:59 AM

While it's certainly possible that an extremely small organization would be given an inordinarily large amount of spotlight in 40k (just like you can't throw a stone in a warzon without having it bitten in two by a Catachan - wasn't that supposed to be a sparsely populated death world?), a few tens of thousands would be.... well, next to nothing. Certainly nothing that was notable in a setting where wars routinely engulf entire planets (IIRC, our planet alone has about 20 million people in various armed forces, meaning they'd outnumber the entire Adeptus Sororitas about 1000:1).

 

For example, the Exiled Sister in the Radical's Handbook you're thinking of was introduced as a Latent Psyker whose powers awakened after having joined a convent, causing her to be thrown out. This is incompatible to GW's own fluff, which flat out stated that "no Adepta Sororitas character will ever have psychic powers of any sort" - presumably referring to purity tests carried out in the Schola Progenium, where the psyker gene would have been discovered before the applicant would have even been considered for the Sisterhood.

Unless I've read that wrong, that's not fluff, but game rules that can be interpreted differently - either there just flat-out exist no psychic sisters or no sister with psychic powers would be allowed to remain in the convent and possibly be serving an Inquisitor in their cadre while still being considered a sister and given access to the standard wargear of the sisterhood.



#22 NiceDaemonette

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:03 AM

Chaos Sororita?

How Heretical!

 

Seriously though, even if you can't play an ACTUAL Fallen Sister, I've always wondered why Chaos hasn't created it's own twisted mockery of the Daughters' of the Emperor?

To that end, who's to say your character didn't just loot her Armor of a Dead Sororita out of jealousy or spite?



#23 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:36 AM

A few tends of thousands of Soroitas in the galaxy wpould make them completely useless as an armed branch of the Ecclesiarchy. That's probably smaller thatn the police force in New York City.



#24 Lynata

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:47 AM

Unless I've read that wrong, that's not fluff, but game rules that can be interpreted differently - either there just flat-out exist no psychic sisters or no sister with psychic powers would be allowed to remain in the convent and possibly be serving an Inquisitor in their cadre while still being considered a sister and given access to the standard wargear of the sisterhood.

 

If you prefer your interpretation, go with it - 40k doesn't have a "real" canon anyways, so even though I think that line is fairly clear, it doesn't really mean anything. As far as I'm concerned, it makes sense, as psychic potential was described to be genetically inherited before, and it is reasonable that the Schola Progenium would test any of its students for genetic purity (signs of mutation) at the time they arrive at the facility.

 

 

 

A few tends of thousands of Soroitas in the galaxy wpould make them completely useless as an armed branch of the Ecclesiarchy. That's probably smaller thatn the police force in New York City.

 

While it's certainly possible that an extremely small organization would be given an inordinarily large amount of spotlight in 40k (just like you can't throw a stone in a warzon without having it bitten in two by a Catachan - wasn't that supposed to be a sparsely populated death world?), a few tens of thousands would be.... well, next to nothing. Certainly nothing that was notable in a setting where wars routinely engulf entire planets (IIRC, our planet alone has about 20 million people in various armed forces, meaning they'd outnumber the entire Adeptus Sororitas about 1000:1).

 

I don't see the problem. There are only 1.000.000 Space Marines either, yet no-one is complaining about the frequency of their appearances in the fluff. The Ultramarines are 1.000 men, yet they are mentioned far, far more often than any of the six Major Orders of the Sisterhood that are several times as large. Same for a whole lot of other Astartes Chapters.

 

Similarly, the Imperial Guard's Storm Trooper regiment was said to be only 10.000 men strong as well. It's not a question of being everywhere at once, it's a question of having the right amount of troops at the right spot at the right time.

And note how 99% of the time, you really only ever hear about the Major Orders, who together have been said to have a maximum headcount of 30k in the Codex fluff. The smaller Minor Orders are more spread out, but these receive next to no mention because they just don't get engulfed in those "routine wars" as often, the most famous exception being the convent of the Ermine Mantle at the Cadian Gate. Whenever you have the Sororitas show up in force - which really isn't all that often in the fluff - it is always one of the Major Orders.

 

The (relatively) small size of the Sisterhood is, to me, the perfect explanation for why they show up in the fluff comparatively seldom, compared to the other armies. The first and foremost line of defence for the Ecclesiarchy is and has always been its warrior priesthood and the Frateris Militia. The Sororitas are a symbol of the Church Militant's might and a reminder of its power, but they are not its primary power itself. That would be the people. The worshippers.

 

In the words of the great Sebastian Thor: "A single man with faith can triumph over a legion of the faithless. Untold billions of the faithful can never be opposed."  ;) 

 

This also ties in to the Decree Passive. If you have millions of Battle Sisters, with each Order armed with (in Codex fluff) "arms and armour the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", and even being deployed to purge rogue Astartes, I could see a lot of people becoming nervous about the Church's martial might. The low numbers of the Sisterhood are also a sign of its extreme membership requirements (the 2E 'dex lets you follow up on the very, very slow growth of this organisation which took several millennia to simply triple its size after Vandire). Plus, In my 40k, I also like my power armour to be a rare sight...

 

 

To be honest, I think that some people just don't like that, in GW's vision of the 41st millennium, the Space Marines are not the only rare and elite force of the IoM. If there are fans who don't like that (which is somewhat understandable, since their representation changes heavily depending on where you look, so a lot of people will have "grown up" with a different idea of them), there's no need to go this route. I just thought I'd point out how the original background describes it, as to at least raise awareness that there are several different options here.


Edited by Lynata, 11 August 2013 - 01:31 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#25 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:14 PM

Space Marines are a rapid strike force and not the official military arm of an enormous (and hugely wealthy) organization. Yes they are absurd, but not this level of extreme absurdity.

 

Why would the Ecclesiarchy have such a tiny force? They're highly trained people in power armor. There's nothing artificially keeping their numbers down as in the case with the Space Marine implant process or rules limiting size of Chapters. The Ecclesiarchy would have to be complete morons. "Yep let's totally make our elite military arm as small as possible."

 

A few tens of thousands of people is, what, the student body of San Diego State University. Wow.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 12 August 2013 - 01:17 PM.


#26 Lynata

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

Space Marines are a rapid strike force and not the official military arm of an enormous (and hugely wealthy) organization.

 

You're still forgetting the Frateris Militia and the Clergy itself. The Sisters of Battle are a symbol and the core of the Church's military might, but they are not the Ecclesiarchy's "rank and file foot soldiers", as you make it sound. Those would be the faithful. All of them.

 

There are quite a lot of major Ecclesiarchy facilities lacking any sort of SoB protection, such as the Subsector Cathedral on Bladen, which was said in Codex Cityfight to be defended solely by its attending priests and a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops.

 

"Imperial Shrines form the main defence points against an alien invasion. If a Chaos, Ork, or Eldar army descends upon a planet, the citizens would usually rally around the Frateris Clergy and defend their shrines and temples from the alien invaders."

- WD #212

 

"Preachers are sometimes known as Defenders of the Faith as they and their Militia often form the first line of defence against insidious Chaos and Genestealer cults or other heretical sects. When a planet is subjected to an alien invasion, it is the Preachers who mobilise the population into defending their homes from the godless heathens who attack them."

- 2E C:SoB

 

Why would the Ecclesiarchy have such a tiny force? They're highly trained people in power armor. There's nothing artificially keeping their numbers down as in the case with the Space Marine implant process or rules limiting size of Chapters.

 

Except extremely high requirements in terms of physical and mental attributes, the likely massive cost of equipment (further exacerbated by simmering distrust with the Adeptus Mechanicus), and maybe a certain degree of scepticism from those who think the Ecclesiarchy is already skirting the borders of the Decree Passive. Let's keep in mind that, initially, the Church Militant was supposed to not have any standing armies at all, and that the Battle Sisters are essentially a condoned oversight.

 

Going by the 2E Codex, it took the Ecclesiarchy 2.500 years to create the six Major Orders that exist now (with Ecclesiarch Deacis VI having founded the Orders of the Sacred Rose and of the Bloody Rose in late M38), which I assume took considerable political scheming and much preparation over several generations of the clergy so as to lobby for general acceptance of a military build-up from an organisation which had earlier plunged the Imperium into civil war. The Convocation of Nephilim, which ultimately bound the Sisters of Battle as allies to the Ordo Hereticus, is a direct product of this fear.

And after M38, only the Minor Orders were founded, which gradually took over local matters so as to free up the "Big Six" for waging the larger campaigns and act as the Ecclesiarchy's rapid response force, active throughout Imperial space and beyond (as we can see on the Force Disposition Charts I linked).

 

Oh, and did I mention that the Sororitas have so few members that they can afford to have their novices take their vows on Holy Terra itself, in presence of the Ecclesiarch, in a ceremony with no more than 500 novices attending?

 

 

Also, you can ask the same questions about Space Marines, actually. The only reasons as to why there's not more of them is because there is the Codex Astartes deliberately limiting their combat capabilities (kind of like the Decree Passive, mhm?) and because they are intentionally limiting their own recruitment capabilities by requiring potential recruits to exhibit such useful battlefield skills like "blacksmithing" (Salamanders), and because their only source of recruits is the fiefs they have been granted to govern by the Administratum, much like the Sororitas recruit solely out of the Schola Progenium. Why is the Imperium not founding many more Chapters?

 

So you see, there are a lot of similarities between these two forces, even beyond their equipment and combat prowess.

 

I'm sorry for having dragged the thread off-topic a bit, but I can't just leave some of those posts uncommented, lest I would allow GW's original fluff to be muddled further by lack of public awareness. As you may have guessed, this is a subject I feel somewhat strongly about, and whilst I have no problem with people intentionally dismissing GW's own fluff in favour of something else, I won't stand idly by when it is communicated in a manner I perceive as flawed and thus misleading for others who might prefer the original background.

 

Feel free to use Codex fluff to back up your statements, however, like I did. Not just personal preferences/opinion.


Edited by Lynata, 12 August 2013 - 03:55 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#27 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:04 PM

I am not relying on Codex fluff, but on the fact that it appears ridiculous and therefore breaks my suspension of disbelief and ability to take the setting seriously. YMMV.



#28 Lynata

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:38 PM

I don't see why, given the above explanations, you think this is any worse than the Space Marines... or difficult to accept in general. There are a lot of factors (political, economical, traditions, recruitment requirements, combat casualties) which all affect the subject matter.

 

But thanks for clearing this up; I suppose in that case we can only agree to disagree. Let me bury my power axe again.  :D


Edited by Lynata, 12 August 2013 - 04:41 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#29 NiceDaemonette

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:58 PM

Uh, didn't the Decree Passive prevent any "Men at Arms" serving the Ecclesiarch, hence the continued existence of the Sororitas themselves?

The Frateris Militia are basically gun-tooting religious fanatics who gather around figures of the Church and aren't directly commanded by them in order to prevent violating the Decree...

 

...And how often does this 500 Sororita Vow Ceremony take place on Holy Terra?

I mean, the Emperor EATS 1000 psykers a DAY, so how hard is it to gather half that in Pious Space Catholic Schoolgirls every couple of weeks?

 

Plus Space Marines need, what, 6 years of Augmentation and are suppose to last Hundreds at the very least?

I doubt their numbers are comparable...

 

I mean you have to remember that Hard Science Fiction writers often muck up the numbers on this scale, let alone Science FANTASY ones...


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#30 Amroth

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:52 AM

The Decree Passive did indeed ban "Men at Arms" serving the Ecclesiarch however its intention was to ban the Ministorum from having any standing armies (since the Adeptus Sororitas were a strong force during the Reign of Blood) . However the Church was able to exploit the wording of the Decree Passive to continue to command Sororitas armies by following the letter of the Decree but most definitely not the spirit.

 

This is why the Church has to be careful about it's military capacity and how the public might view it considering they did the shifty to have any standing military force at all.

 

Of course this wasn't the original question, the original was would it be okay to play a corrupted Adeptas Sororitas and I believe the overwhelming answer was "HELL YEAH!"



#31 Lynata

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:44 AM

Plus Space Marines need, what, 6 years of Augmentation and are suppose to last Hundreds at the very least?

 

And Sisters need 14 years of Schola Progenium upbringing and another 3+ as novices, which is more than double that time.

 

Under ideal conditions, meaning no death in combat, they could probably live just as long as a Space Marine thanks to the available rejuvenation techniques (an example being Canoness Carmina from the White Dwarf Armageddon campaign articles), but since they are somewhat less durable due to missing the genetical enhancements of the Astartes, a higher casualty rate could also be a factor as to why there's not so many of them, as I theorised earlier. When you have higher losses, you need more recruits to replace rather than add to your numbers.

 

I mean you have to remember that Hard Science Fiction writers often muck up the numbers on this scale, let alone Science FANTASY ones...

 

Oh, yes - especially in 40k. That being said, in this case I don't see why the numbers shouldn't add up. It's not like with the Space Marines who show up in the fluff all the time and everywhere (although I feel this is somewhat offset by the chronological distance between individual events), or the 10.000 men of the Storm Trooper regiment. The Battle Sisters are mentioned very, very, very rarely in the fluff of various battles/events - and although this is probably an unintentional connection, their numbers as suggested by GW perfectly reflect this limitation.

 

And then we have the Force Disposition Charts for Armageddon and Cadia, which further strengthen this impression. Look at those numbers and compare them to the Astartes. What ratio do you see?

 

So I just don't see where exactly this perceived need for a higher headcount stems from.  :huh:

 

I'll let the topic rest for now, unless someone has any questions regarding my posts or would like to see sources for some of my claims. I'd recommend this being moved to PM (or possibly a new thread), though, even if the original topic seems to be "finished" already.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#32 NiceDaemonette

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:33 AM

And Sisters need 14 years of Schola Progenium upbringing and another 3+ as novices, which is more than double that time.

And at what age do Space Marines recuit at?
Because 11 sounds about right...
 

So I just don't see where exactly this perceived need for a higher headcount stems from.  :huh:

PSSSH~ It's so we have a better excuse for more Sisters on the Tabletop!



#33 Lynata

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:16 PM

And at what age do Space Marines recuit at?

Because 11 sounds about right...

 

About, yeah - if you really want to add a recruit's childhood before they begin training, then Marines and Sisters enter active battlefield service at roughly the same age.

 

That being said, I could argue it's debatable as to whether this is a valid assessment. The various kids just "don't exist" for the Astartes prior to recruitment. They do not spend resources and manpower on their training, they do not provide limited education slots for them, they don't even keep track of their lives. They just venture out some day, gather a bunch of locals and run them through a couple tests to check who might be suitable.

 

Granted, one could say the Sisterhood does the same, as (at least as per GW fluff; I know a certain Black Library novel that depicts it differently) a Schola student is not recruited into the Sisterhood right away, but rather recommended by their Arch Drill-Abbot upon reaching early adolescence. If the application sounds promising, a Superior of the Orders Famulous visits the facility to inspect the teen, and if the Sororitas is satisfied, the girl will join a convent to begin her novitiate.

 

Then again, even though the Sororitas do not get involved with a future member's training until her teenage years, that individual still takes up a spot in the Ecclesiarchy-run Schola Progenium, whose majority of pupils (who must be orphans of Imperial officers, not just anyone) end up as civilian clerks within the vast halls of the Adeptus Administratum. Those who are more martially minded are instead sent to the Adeptus Arbites, or become NCOs in the Imperial Guard's Segmentum Command or on a Navy warship. Then come the Commissars. Only the best of the best are even considered for membership in the Adepta Sororitas, the Storm Trooper regiment, or one of the Assassin Temples. Very rarely, you also have someone being recruited directly into the retinue of an Inquisitor, to someday become Inquisitor him- or herself.

And to further complicate manners, the Sisterhood accepts only those girls who have been raised in the Schola from infancy. You were orphaned at age 8? Too bad, no membership for you.

 

... bah, now I'm rambling again. I'm sorry, this is one of those topics I could babble on about all day long.   :P


Edited by Lynata, 14 August 2013 - 02:18 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#34 NiceDaemonette

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:30 PM

Then again, even though the Sororitas do not get involved with a future member's training until her teenage years, that individual still takes up a spot in the Ecclesiarchy-run Schola Progenium, whose majority of pupils (who must be orphans of Imperial officers, not just anyone) end up as civilian clerks within the vast halls of the Adeptus Administratum. Those who are more martially minded are instead sent to the Adeptus Arbites, or become NCOs in the Imperial Guard's Segmentum Command or on a Navy warship. Then come the Commissars. Only the best of the best are even considered for membership in the Adepta Sororitas, the Storm Trooper regiment, or one of the Assassin Temples.

Still a larger recruiting pool then one or two feral worlds, and still better chances than a procedure where you only have slightly positive odds of survival...
 

And to further complicate manners, the Sisterhood accepts only those girls who have been raised in the Schola from infancy. You were orphaned at age 8? Too bad, no membership for you.

...Where did you find that tidbit of information?

 

I'm only using the Lexicanum here, but apparently the 195th page of the Sixth Edition Rule Book has each Major Order numbering in the Tens of Thousands, and each MINOR Order numbering in the Thousands...



#35 Lynata

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

Still a larger recruiting pool then one or two feral worlds, and still better chances than a procedure where you only have slightly positive odds of survival...

 

If you count only one or two Space Marine Chapters rather than the full thousand, sure. And as long as you don't count a fleet-based Chapter like the Black Templars, who have been granted permission to recruit from several worlds, or a Chapter like the Ultras who control seven inhabited planets in their mini-empire.

 

As for the Marine creation - the odds shouldn't be that low, unless a Chapter has really messed up with its requirements and testing of applicants. Else the Blood Angels would be in real trouble, what with them supposedly only taking 50 recruits once every generation.

 

 

...Where did you find that tidbit of information?

 

"Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth by the Schola Progenium to believe in the righteousness of their cause."
- 5E C:SoB

 

I'm only using the Lexicanum here, but apparently the 195th page of the Sixth Edition Rule Book has each Major Order numbering in the Tens of Thousands, and each MINOR Order numbering in the Thousands...

 

... and that's why I recommend studying the sources directly and treating those wikis as an index at best, rather than trusting other fans with their editing - especially since Lexicanum insists on the illusion of a uniform and consistent "canon", resulting in much interpretation as the individual editors attempt to reconcile sources that were never meant to be compatible. Not to mention cases where supposedly sourced statements simply do not appear where the wiki claimed ... or quite simply say something different ->

 

"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred Battle Sisters."

- 6E Rulebook p.195

 

The older Codex has somewhat more detailed numbers on the six Major Orders:

 

"In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-700 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars, but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

- 2E C:SoB p.35

 

Note that it is entirely possible that some non-studio source has published a novel or some other book that conflicts with the information quoted above. As I mentioned earlier, FFG itself seems to have inflated their numbers considerably with Blood of Martyrs. I'm just here to pass on how GW's core studio team tells it; anyone is of course quite at liberty to simply dismiss the Codex fluff and adhere to some outsourced book, or even come up with their own idea. "40k is what we make of it."  ;)


Edited by Lynata, 14 August 2013 - 09:55 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#36 Gurkhal

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:14 AM

 I'm just here to pass on how GW's core studio team tells it; anyone is of course quite at liberty to simply dismiss the Codex fluff and adhere to some outsourced book, or even come up with their own idea. "40k is what we make of it."  ;)

 

 

Normally I'm a sucker for keeping this to the canon but in this regard I will probably run with my own view of the numbers of the Adepta Sororitas.



#37 Lynata

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:03 PM

In fairness, your way probably fits better to FFG's RPGs, too - that is, if you're going by Blood of Martyrs.  :)

 

If your players are more familiar with the Calixis sector etc rather than the (sometimes rather hard to find and certainly not well known) GW sources, it could even be confusing to confront them with the latter! With a new group, I'd always recommend to guess or directly inquire what interpretation of the 41st millennium the players gravitate to, just to find the middle ground and (hopefully) cater to it.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)

#38 Blood Pact

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

  and in Cain's Last Stand, where an entire Mission was converted. 

 

 

I don't think the above case would count anyway. Since the big bad in that novel had super mind-control magic on his side. Possibly absolving them of the sin of treason, but not any of the other ones that accompanied it.

 

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't count those Sororitas that went on to technically leave the order. Like by becoming an Inquisitor, or more rarely a Rogue Trader.

 

Another possibility would be those who weren't full sisters when they fell.

 

Technicalities all, of course.


Edited by Blood Pact, 10 September 2013 - 10:23 PM.


#39 MKX

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:02 PM

Wouldn't take too much stock of science fiction numbers, typically a lot of writers seem to have an extraordinarily difficult time getting their heads around scale once they get over a couple of thousand and then something cuts out, the ork-brain kicks in and it becomes 'uh, zoggin lots n lots!' :)

 

I mean, even if the Imperium was only 10,000 earth sized planets with earth-sized populations across a galaxy, you're still looking at a citizenry of about 6.5x10−13 or something... given the fickle nature of warp based travel, a very large percentage of that population are not exactly highly mobile either.

 

 

 

Maybe a sector with say 90 habitable planets has possibly 18,000 Sisters out of a population of around 5.85x10-9 and even then they'd be a spectacularly rare occurrence! Not quite winning lottery small, but also not really able to project much in the way of armed force either. (But military research isn't always a highly scrutinised area either!)

 

Back when I was growing up in the cold war era, somewhere like the highly militarised area of Soviet Russia in the late 80's that I would compare to the average Imperial planet for a number of socio-political and military reasons. They operationally had around 55,000 tanks ranging from T-64s to T80's... 33,000 towed artillery pieces... 8000 rocket artillery pieces... 70,000 APC's... 24,000 IFV's and if pressed, they could mobilise millions relatively decently equipped infantry.

 

 

 

So yeah, take it with a pinch of salt if you're looking at actually realistic numbers.

(Cheers for the background links too Lyn)


Edited by MKX, 11 September 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#40 Lynata

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:44 PM

I still don't see this supposed problem with scale, though. GW has been very consistent about this - their occurences in the fluff perfectly match the small scale of their organisation! :)

 

The numbers only start to become suspicious if, for some reason, you assume that they need to have a presence on every single world, as your statement with the 90 planets implies. However, in doing so, you are supplanting your own preferences over what the background says, basically forcing a contradiction where none existed before. That's like saying there should be at least 100 million Space Marines because their current numbers aren't enough, but for some reason nobody seems to have a problem with the amount of Astartes?

 

As I said, anyone is free to up any of those numbers as they see fit - certainly, lots of novel authors are making use of such liberties, as does FFG's own team of writers. But I think that it would be both untrue and unfair to say that GW's own material is flawed or unrealistic (at least in this case). Divergent preferences do not necessarily mean either side is "wrong".


Edited by Lynata, 11 September 2013 - 06:45 PM.

current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter -- debriefed), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors -- KIA), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose -- assassinated), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia -- retired), Taleera "Raven" Nephran (Hive Ganger & Inquisitorial Assassin -- mindwiped)




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