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So about Characteristics?


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#1 Darck Child

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:58 AM

Just so that I have it completely right in my head, a character;s characteristics can be rolled or point allocated. If rolled they may get one re-roll to offset an intial bad result.

 

These characteristics are then modified by Regiment.

 

The Player may advanced characteristics four times through experience expenditure.

 

From Hammer Of the Emperor may advance a characteristic by 5 by dedicating to that character's current Specialty (class).

 

There is no other caps or racial maximum for character characteristics outside those mentioned above, right?



#2 Darck Child

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:15 PM

Anyone have any thoughts?



#3 Droma

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

That's correct. With some abuse it's possible to get some extremely high stats or skills.



#4 Darck Child

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:03 PM

Thanks Droma much appreciated  :)



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:56 PM

Currently we can expect to see this on support specialists (at least until they have some advanced specialties of their own). Psykers with outrageously high WP are going to be the norm…

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#6 TormDK

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:05 AM

Just to come back to this thread.

Lets say my Sgt isn't going for any of the advanced specialities in HoTE, so instead he opts for the +5 bonus.

Would I be allowed to take the same characteristic at different milestones? Example : WeaponSkill, and do they count as an advancement in that skill that is just "free" (So we would still be capped at +20 to a characteristic, but without that much XP spending)



#7 Kharol

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:20 AM

In my reading, you can take the same Characteristic as many times as you want, and it does not take up an Advancement slot.  I'm definitely hoping that this gets clarified in a FAQ/Errata because 80 Toughness Heavy Gunners seem insane.



#8 SwiftFox

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:39 AM

Your reading would appear to be correct, Torm, with the added note that whatever Characteristic you are improving must be one for which you possess the Aptitude.

For my upcoming OW campaign, however, I am intending to house-rule that the +5 Characteristic Bonus for staying the course counts as a Characteristic Advance, thus capping out the free +5s to +20 for a single characteristic.  This just makes solid sense for me, as any further improvements to a characteristic would probasbly result in the Guardsman getting recruited by the Inquisition because of how good they are.



#9 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

What I do is use random rolls and then let players move up to 3 points one stat to another. This works out pretty well and avoids the Scylla and Other Greek Monster of min-maxing and truly unacceptable rolls.



#10 TormDK

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:42 AM

SwiftFox said:

Your reading would appear to be correct, Torm, with the added note that whatever Characteristic you are improving must be one for which you possess the Aptitude.

For my upcoming OW campaign, however, I am intending to house-rule that the +5 Characteristic Bonus for staying the course counts as a Characteristic Advance, thus capping out the free +5s to +20 for a single characteristic.  This just makes solid sense for me, as any further improvements to a characteristic would probasbly result in the Guardsman getting recruited by the Inquisition because of how good they are.

I'm not the GM this time round (For once, loving every minute of it too :P) - but to me as noted I too see the danger in letting the milestone bonus add up without counting as a regular characteristic advancement. +40 to a characteristic is pretty nuts for a standard guardsman. I think I'll swing it by the GM and see what he says (He tends to like it when things get a little out of hand with overpowered characters)



#11 darkforce

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:24 AM

Hmm… when i read it, i was like "What the ****, no way i'll allow THAT!" but seeing as some of you use it as a free advance, i might adapt it.

But then again, i see those advanced specialties more as Roleplaying classes, for example if the seargeant gets killed and one character heroically steps up, saving both squad and battle, he gets to choose the Commander Advanced Specialty, or if a player repeatedly charges towards enemy tanks throwing Frags/Kraks into hatches, he gets to choose the Breacher specialty, even if they do not have already spend 2500 XP.



#12 Face Eater

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:58 AM

I too like the idea of having the advanced specialities and even allowing them to change between specialities. It gives it a lot of flexibility, you could even have everyone start as a weapons specialist and assign them out Sergent, Heavy weapons and Operators etc as it goes on. 

I was wonder if they mean't, or I might at least do as a house rule when start the game that they can only put one advance in each of the characteristic advances they get which should at least round them out rather than mini max their one stat.



#13 RonFarster

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 09:36 PM

tbh the way we've played Only war so far the game seems impossible without a bit of max-min ing. D100 systesm are not very forgiving, and all the characters in our squad have at least 1 stat at 50. Obviously stats over 60 should be monitored but forcing players to put at least 5 into everything is just going to make a squad that fails all their tests.

for example, consider that getting stats to 50 practically requires them to start at 40, (even with both aptitudes its gonna be a fairly long campaign for you to buy +20 in any stat) and even a stat of 50 (impressive by guard standards) is still only a 50% pass rate. for things like agility, which you use to dodge which is realistically the only way to survive in this game short of impressive cover a 50% pass rate really isnt that optimistic

 

I believe the idea for only war is that each guardsman powers up 2-3 characteristics, so that the SQUAD is well rounded in terms of skills and abilities. they're only human, but by working together you can achieve more.



#14 qcipher

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:04 AM

HappyDaze said:

Currently we can expect to see this on support specialists (at least until they have some advanced specialties of their own). Psykers with outrageously high WP are going to be the norm…

 

I think that would be answered in a future supplement where they further expand on the support classes and offer them their own specialty classes as well as adding the +5.

 

I don't think it's too unbalancing.  It happens at most every 2500 xp.  The fact that it's free is very valuable, raising any stat more than once gets expensive.  But i don't see it as that much of a problem.  In theory, sure, someone can raise a stat 6+ times; 4 normal times and then say 2 more times by spending a total of 5k xp and not branching.  That's a huge outlay of xp, that's worth some rewards IMO.  That'd be +30 to one stat, and so max out at maybe 76?  High, but not game shattering.  And as they start really getting up there (10+k), I would expect some great stats.  They're still not going to get the Unnatural stats that marines get, and are unlikely to (reliably) get the advanced gear that Rogue Traders and Marines get.  But they'll be some of the best of the best.

 

However, the game is very new and I haven't seen the high ends of power in action for it yet.



#15 borithan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:34 AM

RonFarster said:

for example, consider that getting stats to 50 practically requires them to start at 40, (even with both aptitudes its gonna be a fairly long campaign for you to buy +20 in any stat) and even a stat of 50 (impressive by guard standards) is still only a 50% pass rate. for things like agility, which you use to dodge which is realistically the only way to survive in this game short of impressive cover a 50% pass rate really isnt that optimistic

"Impressive by guard standards"? The guidelines, at least in Dark Heresy, is that a 50% in a characteristic is "heroic" level. 30 is average (and not for a malnutritioned, close minded hive worlder, but a healthy, intelligent individual),35+ is above average, 40 is "impressive", and 45 is really high for a normal human.

Now, as you say, it still entails a 50% fail rate. However, 1) skills should only be rolled when something is actually challenging (or when timing is an issue) and in most "easy" cases with a bonus. 2) Skills can get upgrades. You can get up to +30 with a skill. Even with a stat of 30 that is a 60% pass rate before you even consider modifiers for difficulty (which genuinely hard things aside should usually be at a bonus). Dodging on 80s for someone who has 3 levels of training 3) In combat and opposed checks the actual level doesn't matter, it is the relative level that matters. If two people are opposed the person who has a 50+ is much better off than 30, as they are more likely to pass, and if they pass they are more likely to pass with a bigger margin. If they fail they are more likely to fail by a smaller margin. Combat is similar, but not exactly the same, but as the base difficulty to hit is so low, dodge just represents the final line of defence. Now, this is slightly off set by the fact that it is relatively easy to some positive modifiers to shooting, but even 30% dodge is not irrelevant, especially considering an average guy has only got a 50-60% to hit you even with positive modifiers. Throw in some cover (meaning some hits get turned into harmless hits on cover) and you are actually not badly off.



#16 Storm6436

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:02 AM

*shrug* My solution was to stat cap at 60 (we're still discussing 60 vs 65 amongst ourselves in our group) to prevent the Psyker with 90+ WP or the Weapons Specialist with a 90+ BS.  I presented the issue while working on my "Unify all the game systems" project and the discussion it started was pretty animated.  I made my point by highlighting that the Temple assassins are pretty much the top of the food chain when it comes to killing stuff... and everyone agreed that one of the last things they'd ever want was an Eversor coming after them.   The folks who wanted no skill-cap or didn't see a problem with things changed their tune when I pointed out the Eversor as statted out had a 70 WS/BS. 

 

 So, at least provisionally, until you hit 60 or 65 with a attribute in my game,you can keep adding to it... to go past the first cap, you need access to something that gives you the unnatural quality.



#17 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:09 AM

A 70 BS gives you a 95% chance to hit with a HA aim + standard attack + short range...

 

I do not see why somewhat would want characteristic skills in the 50-60 range. They don't make sense either thematically or mechanically.. Those stats are exceptional for Astartes. For someone with a stat of 30 with only a known level of a skill your "ordinary" chance to succeed.is 50% already. I suspect this is based on the common misapprehension that a normal Test has a +0 modifier.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 07 July 2013 - 07:10 AM.





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