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Kobolds, Figures and Large Monsters


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#1 Krawallburste

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

Hello Community it is me again =)

So Yesterday i had an epic play session (with epic arguments), which threw up 3 Questions i would like 2 be answered!

1) Kobolds.

When my heroes killed the 3 kobold-mastermonsters, which blocked a path of 3 spaces wide, with a blast all at the same time, i wanted 2 split them up as following: i placed a kobold in front, and behind every mastermosnter, then removing the master monster from the game.

My Players demanded 2 spawn the minionkobolds adjacent to each other (for obviouzs blast reasons), reasoning they had 2 be pot to the CLOSEST ADJACENT AVAILABLE EMPTY SPACE, which in their argumentation was the space earlier contained by the mastermonster (which was now dead), and some place next 2 it.

 

Ogre: when this monster is deefated, remove it from the map and then replace it with a minion of the same type

Kobold: When this monster is defeated, replace it with 2 minions of the same type in the closest available empty spaces

My argumentation was, that the ogre card specifies, 2 remove the masterogre from the game and then spawn another minionogre, whilst they koboldmasters force u 2 spawn 2 kobolds. obviously my intention of blocking the way with 2 walls, which could not be blasted with 1 attack through alters my judgement, pl, can anybody help?

i would say the koboldmasters are removed AFTER the split ability is triggered, keeping the space, where the masters stood empty, after they died.

2) Figures

We played the "Whats yours is Mine" encounter, where u have this jorem tolk doing some mining for you, when you manage 2 have a fatigue token on him. I just naturally used my ettin 2 throw him down the hall, preventing the heroes 2 roll defense dies and keeping him und my control all the time. my heroes raged against "ability abusing" and started an argumentation about jorem tolk not having any strength and ended with the explanation, that since he was no hero, he must be a familiar treated as a figure, which could not be affected by the ettin throw since it says: Choose a hero adjacent to this monster. That hero must test Strength. Since Jorem tolk was no hero, he couldnt be affected. My argumentation he would be a figure treated as a hero was thrown down, since it "was not written in the questbook". are they right? are npc's figure like familiars? would be a shame…  i remember having some question about sir palamon as well, ending in the statement that it was just not written in the book, because the guys at fantasy flight games are also "just human"

 

3)large monsters

I came 2 realise, that when i end my movement with a large tile monster i get 2 spawn it anywhere around the acclaimed space. so it would be possible, when u declare like 3 moveactions (dash) 2 proc 1 moveaction after another wont it? this would be adding 2 to 4 extra spaces (depending on monster largeness) since every move actions is not depending on the former. or do i pick 1 space at the start of my turn, making me count from that space on every movement in the following?

 

ty for ur patience if u read all this, even more thanks on ur smart ideas - 

 

urs

 

krawallbürste



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:50 AM

Krawallbürste said:

Ogre: when this monster is deefated, remove it from the map and then replace it with a minion of the same type

Kobold: When this monster is defeated, replace it with 2 minions of the same type in the closest available empty spaces

I believe the general consensus is that one of the two kobolds must be placed in the space the master previously occupied.  The ability triggers on the master being defeated, and being defeated means the master is removed from the board (even though they don't explicitly mention this like they do for the Ogre's undying.)

You can submit the question to FFG if you want an official ruling.  I'm not sure if this one has been covered in the BGG D2E wiki or not.

Krawallbürste said:

2) Figures

We played the "Whats yours is Mine" encounter, where u have this jorem tolk doing some mining for you, when you manage 2 have a fatigue token on him. I just naturally used my ettin 2 throw him down the hall, preventing the heroes 2 roll defense dies and keeping him und my control all the time. my heroes raged against "ability abusing" and started an argumentation about jorem tolk not having any strength and ended with the explanation, that since he was no hero, he must be a familiar treated as a figure, which could not be affected by the ettin throw since it says: Choose a hero adjacent to this monster. That hero must test Strength. Since Jorem tolk was no hero, he couldnt be affected. My argumentation he would be a figure treated as a hero was thrown down, since it "was not written in the questbook". are they right? are npc's figure like familiars? would be a shame…  i remember having some question about sir palamon as well, ending in the statement that it was just not written in the book, because the guys at fantasy flight games are also "just human"

Jorem Tolk is not a familiar.  He is also not a hero.  According to the quest guide, he is "a figure who may be targeted by attacks."  Period.  This would be one of the very rare cases where a figure is not either a hero or a monster, BTW.

Now, if the Ettin's Throw ability were an attack, you'd be golden, because Jorem can be targeted by attacks.  (All monster attacks are required, per rules, to target "a hero" so the fact that Jorem is explicitly allowed to be targeted by attacks means the use of the word "hero" could be overlooked.)  Unfortunately, Throw is not an attack.  So the hero players are ultimately correct, even if their logic is somewhat off.

However, if you had a monster with the Knockback ability on its attacks, you could use that to knock Jorem around a little.

Krawallbürste said:

3)large monsters

I came 2 realise, that when i end my movement with a large tile monster i get 2 spawn it anywhere around the acclaimed space. so it would be possible, when u declare like 3 moveactions (dash) 2 proc 1 moveaction after another wont it? this would be adding 2 to 4 extra spaces (depending on monster largeness) since every move actions is not depending on the former. or do i pick 1 space at the start of my turn, making me count from that space on every movement in the following?

You actually have the choice to do it either way.  You can declare all three Move Actions at once, pool up all those MPs and then do one big move, or you could declare the Move Actions one at a time, shrinking and expanding anew for each one.  And yes, doing them separately would allow you to squeeze out a few more spaces by way of clever expanding.

If the space you'd need to stop in after one of these moves was too small, but there was more room later on, then you might want to consider declaring two moves together so that you can get through the narrow area without being required to expand.  (Otherwise you wouldn't be able to move there without enough room to expand at the end.)  But in general, for large monsters, there are relatively few reasons not to declare Move Actions separately.



#3 Palewind

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:24 AM

I don't think you can abuse the Large monsters movement with the latest FAQ clarifications. 

Rulebook, page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.” 

I know this refers to exclusively to interrupting movement with an action but I don't think you can choose to perform three seperate move actions (in this case) to just use the shrink-expand-shrink to gain extra "free" spaces.

When you perform two move actions you add up the movement into an available "pool"  that you can then expend and interupt to perform others actions. It shouldn't be used to unnecessarily interrupt a move action with another move action. 

I'm sure people will disagree with my interpreation but having played as the Overlord more often than not, this seems a more straightforward and logical way of moving large, lumbering monsters. They shouldn't be moving faster than their smaller counterparts. I see a lot of discussion around why you would pick a small group over a large group and I would hope movement, which is so key to the game, would favor the smaller groups.

 

- PW.

 
 


#4 Steve-O

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:37 PM

Palewind said:

Rulebook, page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.” 

It has been suggested in the past that a large monster might be able to open a door from one (or two) spaces away if it "interrupts" from a distance in order to open the door, so long as the monster can be placed ont he map such that it is touching the door after it "expands."  This FAQ answer is clarifying that you must be able to perform the desired interrupt action from the single "moving space" before you can interrupt your move action.

Palewind said:

When you perform two move actions you add up the movement into an available "pool"  that you can then expend and interupt to perform others actions. It shouldn't be used to unnecessarily interrupt a move action with another move action.

Nobody is talking about interrupting a move action to perform another move action.  In fact, doing that would arguably prevent the monster from expanding, since he's still moving.

We're talking about completing your first move action and then declaring your next action to also be a move (and then adding a third with Dash later).  This is perfectly legal for all figures.  No one is required to declare their second action before executing their first, and I see no reason why large monsters should be treated any differently.  In fact, the Overlord isn't even required to play Dash before executing his regular actions with the large monster.  The recent FAQ has clarified that Dash (and Frenzy) may be played at any time during a monster's activation.

You can play with whatever house rules you want if it helps you sleep at night, but there's no basis in RAW for your interpreation.



#5 JBouthietteJr

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:16 AM

In reponse to OP, yes, you're correct about ogres, but I look at effects from a sort of thematic sense, too: if you killed the master Kobold group, aren't they essentially splitting into two groups? In that case, I'd remove the slain master figure and place the two minions adjacent and as close to the master's spot as possible. It's less "Minions, come and avenge me!" and more "You cut us in half, we grew our limbs back, deal with twice of us now." That's how I see it, is how I'd play it (haven't played Kobolds yet but I reeeeally want to) and I'd expect my gaming group to agree.

 

Steve-O covered the other two quesitons well enough that I won't bother adding more, but I wanted to add my spin to the Kobold ruling!


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