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#21 Ganruy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 04:11 AM

Okay after reading the CRB and Hammer of the Emperor over and over again there are still some realy big questions on my mind.

Why is the range for a Leman Russ BATTLECANON listed with 350 meters? We'r talking about the Main Gun of a MBT here and not a simple heavy stubber. Same goes for the Earthshakerr Gun. Discriptions tells that it is a piece of "superior long range artillery" but the range chart tells us that it is in fact just a piece of short range anti-tank weapon with a range of 3.5km (3,500 meters). Compared to a modern day german Panzerhaubitze 2000 (max. range 30-40 km = 30,000 to 40,000 meters) this is next to nothing.

Same goes for every singel heavy weapon from autocannon to mortars and missilelaunchers the listed ranges don't make any sense.

Perhaps some of you fine folk can sheed some light on this matter.



#22 Spinner

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:23 AM

My assumption is that it's because we don't give people chainsaw swords and point them at the other guy in real life. Realistic range would nerf close combat pretty heavily (unless every fight is an ambush/close quarters brawl/unending horde until the squad runs out of ammo).

 

It also makes representative miniatures easier to put on the map!



#23 Emperor Castaigne

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:19 AM

Ganruy said:

Why is the range for a Leman Russ BATTLECANON listed with 350 meters?

It's not, it's 750 meters. Where did you get that number? I brought up some some inconsistencies between the Weapons section of the Armoury and the ones listed in the Vehicles section in my Errata Suggestions thread (I might cannibalize this thread for things to bring up there, just to have it all collected in one place), but the Leman Russ Battle Cannon is the same in both (750m; S/–/–; 3d10+10 X; Pen 8; Clip 12; Reload 3 Full; Blast [10], Concussive [3], Reliable). You also shouldn't forget that weapons can fire up to 4 times their standard range, they just get increasingly harsh penalties to their attack rolls when doing so.

As for the rest you said, I just blame the fact that plenty of writers for 40k simply don't get military stuff, whether it's logistics, weapon ranges, tactics, or anything else, and then try to to fix the most egregious stuff by complaining at the people in charge until they notices and fixes the problem. Personally, I've been trying to get FFG to make the Ammo Backpack less crap since the Beta.



#24 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:46 PM

If a guardsman is engaged in melee, may he make a ballistic skill attack at the enemy with which he is engaged? What would the modifiers be? Thanks.



#25 Tygre

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

If a guardsman is engaged in melee, may he make a ballistic skill attack at the enemy with which he is engaged? What would the modifiers be? Thanks.

In melee you can make shooting attacks.  But only against the target you are in melee with and only with pistols or weapons deliberately stating the can be used one hand in combat.  There is no additional modifiers for shooting your melee opponent with a pistol, but note that you do not get the bonus for Point Blank Range in melee.  If you are using Two-Weapon Fighting penalties will apply (see page 252 for Two Weapon Fighting).

 

As for the Battle Cannon and Artillery range issues, I have used search to find all the battle cannon references in my PDF and only found the distance 750m for it.  The absolute range of the weapon (4x) would make it 4Km which is the same effective range as the M1a2 Abrams effective range.

Also if you are comparing artillery, the larger the calibre the more powder and therefore longer range.  The long range artillery people site with 30Km+ range are 155mm peices.  The Earthshaker is 132mm.  And if you look up artillery ranges you should compare it with the smaller 105mm artillery aswell.  You will find that the Earthshakers range is in between those from 105mm and 155mm artillery peices.  132 is between 105 and 155.

However if you compare it to 5.25" (132mm) Naval Guns you will find it lacking.  But since Naval guns have heavier breaches (Too heavy for mobile ground use) and can therefore use more propellant it is somewhat understandable.

Having said all that though, the Forge World Imperial Armour 1 gives its ranges as exceeding 15Km.  So it max range is still 1Km short.  So I would House Rule the Earthshakers range to either 3750m (for 15Km max) or 4000m for (16Km max)



#26 Emperor Castaigne

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

If a guardsman is engaged in melee, may he make a ballistic skill attack at the enemy with which he is engaged? What would the modifiers be? Thanks.

In melee you can make shooting attacks.  But only against the target you are in melee with and only with pistols or weapons deliberately stating the can be used one hand in combat.  There is no additional modifiers for shooting your melee opponent with a pistol, but note that you do not get the bonus for Point Blank Range in melee.  If you are using Two-Weapon Fighting penalties will apply (see page 252 for Two Weapon Fighting).

Firing at a target you're fighting in Melee is exactly the same as shooting at any other target except that you can only use Pistols to attack with and you ignore the +30 bonus for being at Point Blank Range. Everything else is the same, whether it's making a Standard Attack (+10), shooting a target of Enormous size (+20), making any test while Fatigued (-10), shooting at a target in utter darkness without equipment to help you see (-30), etc. etc.

 

The only Range modifiers you need to keep in mind are the following:

(1): if the Regiment have the Close Quarter Combat Doctrine from Hammer of the Emperor (+10 bonus to BS skill checks made at Point Blank range).

(2): if they are using a Pistol with the Scatter Quality, such as one of the Shotgun Pistols from Dark Heresy, in which case they would get the +10 bonus for firing a Scatter weapon at Short or Point Blank range and the +3 damage bonus for firing a weapon with Scatter at Point Blank range.

(3): Doubling the Pen of Melta weapons for being fired at Short Range or closer, in the unlikely event that your players have gotten ahold of an Inferno Pistol. Or so I thought, re-reading the Weapon Quality says "This weapon doubles its Penetration when firing at Short Range.", it doesn't mention if the bonus also apply to the Point-Blank range.

 

Well, I guess this is the place to ask: Does the Melta Weapon Quality give the bonus to Pen when fired at Point-blank Range?



#27 Tygre

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:52 AM

 

Well, I guess this is the place to ask: Does the Melta Weapon Quality give the bonus to Pen when fired at Point-blank Range?

 

 

Well the Short Range rule is, that if the target is at a distance less than half the weapons range value it is Short Range.

So that would include Point Blank Range strickly by rules as written.

 

Personally I think that it was intended (RAI) that Melta also works at Point Blank Range.  If I tried that it didn't work at Point Blank Range with my players I would likely get challenged on it.



#28 Eradico Pravus

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Castaigne, Tygre, thanks so much for your assistance.



#29 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

I have some questions: 

 

1. How does characters with specialized weapons get them? I mean heavies with Heavy Stubbers etc. Do they still need to beat a requisition roll with base 10% chance or something?

 

2. Ogryn ripper gun 1d0+8 damage... really? It seems horrible broken and the best IG personal weapon there is. I know it's supposed to be very heavy caliber auto shotguns, but this is insane, especially with Scatter (1d10+11). Im considering nerfing this to 1d10+5 base - still heavier calibre than a Heavy Stubber, which is supposed to be a heavy machinegun. Maybe they did a mistake and added the Scatter damage bonus already?

 

3. Why is the pump shotgun listed with 1d10+3, less damage than normal shotguns and combat shotguns? That makes no sense and wasn't the case in earlier FFG games such as DH. 

 

4. How does primitive armor work? I can't find any rules about how they interact with modern weapons, although it is noted in the fluff it doesn't stop lasguns or something but works against swords. 



#30 TormDK

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

1: No they get them as part of their kit. They do need to use logistics to restock on ammo however, as their ammo is outside the standard kit. If a weapon breaks, they will need to use logistics to get a new item as well.

 

2: The Ripper gun is a heavy weapon, on pair with similar heavy weapons. The Ogryn just has the talents to move and fire it around without much issues. Again, remember that ammo has to be requisitioned, and that ogryns per fluff are powerhouses against regular infantry (Your starting ogryn is almost immune to auto or lasgun fire - with some xp he will have so much soak that he can wade into a sea of bullets without worrying)

 

3: No clue, I didn't look much at the shotguns at all, even with Scatter the lasgun will quickly outshine it with talents, especially if you have access to Hammer of the Emperor talents.

 

4: Primative armour works against primative weapons, but only has half AP against non-primitive weapons. (It's the other way around too - modern armour has twice the AP against primitive weapons)


Edited by TormDK, 16 July 2013 - 02:39 PM.


#31 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:53 PM

1. Ok number one is fine, I seemed to miss it. It doesn't help them acquire fitting weapons it seems though, so unless the regiment has favored weapon Heavy Bolter, the Heavy cannot get one more easily than a Weapons Specialist. 

 

2. So basically Ogryn are broken just like having a Space Marine from Deathwatch in a DH game?

 

3. Yeah the Lasgun is the favored weapon after all, but the shotguns are meant to outdo them in close quarters. And yeah it just doesn't make sense to nerf it, and the ammunition capacity for the previous 2-barrel shotgun is now 8 for no reason. This stuff needs errata. 

 

4. Can you quote me a page number on this? I'm trying to find it, as this was how it worked in DH. Primitive quality in the weapons section says it limits the damage roll against modern armor, not that modern armor doubles it. 

 

1: No they get them as part of their kit. They do need to use logistics to restock on ammo however, as their ammo is outside the standard kit. If a weapon breaks, they will need to use logistics to get a new item as well.

 

2: The Ripper gun is a heavy weapon, on pair with similar heavy weapons. The Ogryn just has the talents to move and fire it around without much issues. Again, remember that ammo has to be requisitioned, and that ogryns per fluff are powerhouses against regular infantry (Your starting ogryn is almost immune to auto or lasgun fire - with some xp he will have so much soak that he can wade into a sea of bullets without worrying)

 

3: No clue, I didn't look much at the shotguns at all, even with Scatter the lasgun will quickly outshine it with talents, especially if you have access to Hammer of the Emperor talents.

 

4: Primative armour works against primative weapons, but only has half AP against non-primitive weapons. (It's the other way around too - modern armour has twice the AP against primitive weapons)

 

 



#32 TormDK

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

1: That is correct, and it forces the players to think long and hard on their regimental favorite weapons, in case any of them plans on playing Weapon specialist or Heavy. We went with Plasmagun and Lascannon in our initial squad even though no one plays a WS or Heavy currently. (Sgt, Medic, Ogryn, Enginseer, Stormtrooper, Psyker are our lineup) 

 

2: No, I would not say so. Unnatural charactics are "only" +2, compared to x2 from Deathwatch/Dark Heresy.

 

The ogryn is a prime shock trooper, but he isn't invincible. Soften him up with some heavy bolter or auto cannon shells. Your enemy troops do not have to all have autoguns and nothing else :)

 

Our GM has had luck with using frag granades as well (We have an ogryn player in our squad, and our GM is very good at rolling 15+ on 2d10). His 25-28 wounds will mean that he is a walking meat shield however.

 

4: Looks like they took out that bit, as I can't seem to find any referance of it. Nice, not that it would change much since most regiments would be using some sort of guard flak armour, but I like that you can get AP6 from feudal plate, if you can handle the 30kg weight.


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#33 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:23 PM

Alright, but let me throw the question about Ogryn back to you: Would it be unbalanced to reduce the Ripper gun damage to 1d10+5? It would still be a very effective weapon IMO, better than Lasguns for sure, especially with Scatter and full auto. 

 

I was also earlier considering a house rule for Scatter in DH, to allow the Scatter effect happen at short range as well as point blank - thus normally that damage will be 1d10+8 (but not higher). That also makes shotguns the preferred weapons in close quarter, and thus a viable option for a weapons specialist (normal and combat shotguns). I use the living errata version for Scatter, except -3 damage is on LONG range (61+ meters) and not anything over short range (16 meters). The idea that the shotguns somehow becomes useless at 20 meters is insanity from CoD. DH had this correct from the start. 

 

Also, I Shotgun reduce ammo from 8 to 2 (it's a civilian 2-barrel), and pump shotgun from 12 to 8 (It's equivalent of modern military shotguns). Combat Shotgun is retained, as it has a drum which justifies it's ammo capacity. 

 

1: That is correct, and it forces the players to think long and hard on their regimental favorite weapons, in case any of them plans on playing Weapon specialist or Heavy. We went with Plasmagun and Lascannon in our initial squad even though no one plays a WS or Heavy currently. (Sgt, Medic, Ogryn, Enginseer, Stormtrooper, Psyker are our lineup) 

 

2: No, I would not say so. Unnatural charactics are "only" +2, compared to x2 from Deathwatch/Dark Heresy.

 

The ogryn is a prime shock trooper, but he isn't invincible. Soften him up with some heavy bolter or auto cannon shells. Your enemy troops do not have to all have autoguns and nothing else :)

 

Our GM has had luck with using frag granades as well (We have an ogryn player in our squad, and our GM is very good at rolling 15+ on 2d10). His 25-28 wounds will mean that he is a walking meat shield however.

 

4: Looks like they took out that bit, as I can't seem to find any referance of it. Nice, not that it would change much since most regiments would be using some sort of guard flak armour, but I like that you can get AP6 from feudal plate, if you can handle the 30kg weight.



#34 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:20 PM

I thought pump shotgun damage was errated to 1d10+4. ?

 

Primitive is quality on the weapon  limiting its maximum damage in OW.



#35 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:15 PM

I thought pump shotgun damage was errated to 1d10+4. ?

 

Primitive is quality on the weapon  limiting its maximum damage in OW.

 

I couldn't see it in the errata - it's still version 1.0 living errata right?

 

AFAIK the Primitive quality damage nerf only kicks in against modern armor. Otherwise why limit the damage of these weapons compared to DH values? Why would a arrow from a bow only be able to do 6 damage to an unarmored individual? Not to mention Slings, that can't injure a normal TB 3 person at all - damage roll is capped at 5, with a -2!



#36 TormDK

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:13 AM

"Would it be unbalanced to reduce the Ripper gun damage to 1d10+5?"

 

I would say yes, there's no heavy weapon that has 1d10+5 with no penetration as it is right now. If you want to talk about "overpowered", wait till your ogryn character requests to requisition an auto cannon, gets it and starts using it :). Those poor standard grunts will likely turn into fine paste, even more so than when hit by the Ripper that typically takes two rounds to get a kill.

 

Remember that ogryns are considered huge, so they are easier to hit as well, and has problems with small spaces. That alone can do some funny moments. We had an incident where our ogryn player refused to enter a chimera transport while we were retreating from superior numbers while being hurt fairly bad, and I couldn't make him (I play as our squads Sgt, and I failed my command test). The end result was that we had to strap him on top of the chimera, so he was on the recieving end of some multi-las shots as we made our getaway.

 

I looked through the core book last night, and primitive was remade from previous books (I don't have BC, but it likes carries over from that system). Primitive quality only caps max damage (so any roll of 8,9 or 0 is treated as 8, except for righteous fury which can still happen - just not the damage part). In effect Primitive is the reverse of the Proven quality, so lowering maximum damage rather than improving minimum damage.


Edited by TormDK, 17 July 2013 - 01:14 AM.


#37 BossTroll

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:22 AM

Okay after reading the CRB and Hammer of the Emperor over and over again there are still some realy big questions on my mind.

Why is the range for a Leman Russ BATTLECANON listed with 350 meters? We'r talking about the Main Gun of a MBT here and not a simple heavy stubber. Same goes for the Earthshakerr Gun. Discriptions tells that it is a piece of "superior long range artillery" but the range chart tells us that it is in fact just a piece of short range anti-tank weapon with a range of 3.5km (3,500 meters). Compared to a modern day german Panzerhaubitze 2000 (max. range 30-40 km = 30,000 to 40,000 meters) this is next to nothing.

Same goes for every singel heavy weapon from autocannon to mortars and missilelaunchers the listed ranges don't make any sense.

Perhaps some of you fine folk can sheed some light on this matter.

 

The range stat is not the maximum range, it's the value used to calculate to hit bonus/penalties.

(up to half: +10 to hit, between half and double: +0 to hit, between double and triple -10, etc)

This goes for all the ranged weapons

The Battlecannon is also range 750, not 350.

Weapons have no official maximum to range, only what the GM decides.


Edited by BossTroll, 17 July 2013 - 03:23 AM.

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#38 Tygre

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:35 AM

Weapons have no official maximum to range, only what the GM decides.

 

Page 168, "Weapons cannot be fired at targets more than four times their range distance away."



#39 Friend of the Dork

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

Good point about penetration - a Heavy stubber will perform almost as good as a ripper gun against normally armored foes (basically everything but orks). 

 

And yes I know about the Auto Cannon, but it's a bit easier to keep away from the players' hands. Not even Space Marines will routinely run around with these crazy things. IMO they are intended for vehicle mounts and some fixed locations, not given to mutants to abuse - but that's just my way of looking at it. 

 

I know how the Primitive quality works, just not sure if it's intended to work like that against all armors and enemies (which makes no sense) or against modern armors only (which makes perfect sense). Many don't care about primitive weapons anyway, but to me it's important that they fulfill their purpose on the primitive planets they're from. Essentially, they should have comparable damage to the weapons listed in Warhammer fantasy, as primitive armors are comparable to them as well. 

 

 

 

"Would it be unbalanced to reduce the Ripper gun damage to 1d10+5?"

 

I would say yes, there's no heavy weapon that has 1d10+5 with no penetration as it is right now. If you want to talk about "overpowered", wait till your ogryn character requests to requisition an auto cannon, gets it and starts using it :). Those poor standard grunts will likely turn into fine paste, even more so than when hit by the Ripper that typically takes two rounds to get a kill.

 

Remember that ogryns are considered huge, so they are easier to hit as well, and has problems with small spaces. That alone can do some funny moments. We had an incident where our ogryn player refused to enter a chimera transport while we were retreating from superior numbers while being hurt fairly bad, and I couldn't make him (I play as our squads Sgt, and I failed my command test). The end result was that we had to strap him on top of the chimera, so he was on the recieving end of some multi-las shots as we made our getaway.

 

I looked through the core book last night, and primitive was remade from previous books (I don't have BC, but it likes carries over from that system). Primitive quality only caps max damage (so any roll of 8,9 or 0 is treated as 8, except for righteous fury which can still happen - just not the damage part). In effect Primitive is the reverse of the Proven quality, so lowering maximum damage rather than improving minimum damage.

 



#40 KIA64

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

Hi all. I am VERY new to Only War but I have played many different RPG and role play games. I am hoping against the odds that there has been a character generator created for Only War. I have been at a loss looking for one. I thought this might be the place to ask if someone had found one. Thank you for your help. I know it is a long shot but if you have seen one please let me know. I would love to get my hands on it. 






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