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What next for 40K RPG?


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#41 AtoMaki

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

Kharol said:

Well, it seems fair to say that anywhere from one to two thirds of every session in a 40K campaign is going to consist of combat.  Even if you just have one fight in the whole session, the granularity of the combat system means that it's necessarily going to be time consuming.  Knowing this, very few players are going to voluntarily abstain from one to two thirds of the session just to have the opportunity to participate meaningfully in the remainder of the session.  This is why it seems silly to me to reserve valuable or even crucial skills to non-combat-exclusive classes: either someone sits out most of every session just so they can make the necessary Tech-Use/Medicae/Lore roll to move the story forward, or the party consists of muscle-headed lunks inept at even basic non-physical tasks. And the non-combat skill rolls never have the same level of engagement that combat does: it's either a single binary roll, or a series of rolls where any one failure is a total failure.

I think Only War really did it right in this regard.  Since everyone has respectable combat ability, everyone can comfortably focus on non-combat development knowing that they will be able to participate meaningfully in both combat and non-combat encounters.  If FFG was going to develop a Horus Heresy game line, it seems reasonable to limit the scope to Space Marines given that they are the primary movers and shakers in the time period, and they have a very reasonable balance between combat and non-combat ability.

I dunno, we had may-many sessions that were completely devoid of combat. If the system and the setting supports and rewards non-violent solutions at least just as much as actual fights, then the PCs would lean towards those solutions better, because nobody likes to take Damage. 

OW is kinda' like a weirdo here, because some of its non-combat stuff is pretty much essential (Medicae, Tech-Use, Survival) while others are right at the very bottom of the trash bin (Fellowship and anything related to it). 



#42 Dulahan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

Or they could just make the game.  And ADMIT in the rules that there are different tiers of play, that regular humans are not meant to and will not be able to keep up with the Marines.



#43 Lynata

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

AtoMaki said:

I dunno, we had may-many sessions that were completely devoid of combat. If the system and the setting supports and rewards non-violent solutions at least just as much as actual fights, then the PCs would lean towards those solutions better, because nobody likes to take Damage. 

OW is kinda' like a weirdo here, because some of its non-combat stuff is pretty much essential (Medicae, Tech-Use, Survival) while others are right at the very bottom of the trash bin (Fellowship and anything related to it).

Many sessions like that in Deathwatch, or DH/RT? I'd say it always depends on the scope of the campaign and the style of narrative, as well as what the dramatis personae are there for and associated with.

Don't get me wrong, with the Great Crusade I could actually think that Marines engage more in social stuff, similar to what some of the Post-Heresy Chapters do on their various homeworlds (governance, guidance, tutorship, …). But I wouldn't assume that normal people have any place in that, not in this era. Besides, how many fans would play a Space Marine without wanting to experience their combat prowess? Isn't that their raison d'être, the most dominant factor in their representation, and the primary reason why they are so popular in the first place?

With OW, the structuring of the skills and talents is fitting to the theme, as I would not regard Medicae, Tech-Use or Survival as "pure" non-combat skills, but rather things that are useful or even necessary to supplement the battle experience. It's the same with Deathwatch, too. And I would expect the same from a Great Crusade RPG. Yet … these are abilities that you could simply use a Marine for. In fact, I'd say it would be weird to have an Imperial Army medic tag along as a healer for a bunch of Astartes.

 

Dulahan said:

Or they could just make the game.  And ADMIT in the rules that there are different tiers of play, that regular humans are not meant to and will not be able to keep up with the Marines.
But is it economical to commit design resources to a feature that few people would use? What percentage of buyers would willingly play "extras" who have little impact on the game due to their diminished role?

And in this case I'm not even talking about the artificially widened gap in FFG's games, but also that the Horus Heresy as a setting just does not have much to offer for normal people - not in the way it is presented in the novels, at least. What sort of normal human "support" classes would people be supposed to play? Remembrancers who get to make rolls on how good their songs about the actual heroes will be?

They may as well focus on the actual "stars" of that era entirely. The designers had their chance for mixed groups with equal usefulness in the past but opted against it - I suppose it may well be a matter of vision, but I just don't see what they could gain from shoehorning normal humans in a game whose narration has so far entirely ommitted them. It'd be kind of like making a Superman RPG where you can also play normal cops, firefighters and mailmen who get to do things alongside Clark Kent. It just doesn't seem very … practical? pensativo

But let's hear your ideas. How exactly would you design a Great Crusade RPG that doesn't feature Marines alone, yet is fun to play for everyone?


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#44 AtoMaki

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:39 AM

Lynata said:

Many sessions like that in Deathwatch, or DH/RT? I'd say it always depends on the scope of the campaign and the style of narrative, as well as what the dramatis personae are there for and associated with.

Better! We had them in BC, where we had a mixed Space Marine/Human party. And oddly enough, we often found Humans more useful in these adventures than Space Marines, because they had a much wider selection of non-violent options. 



#45 Lynata

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:23 AM

*nods* BC also delivers a much more appropriate "opportunity" for such types of interaction, as just about every famous Chaos Warband relies much more on human helpers - not to mention their use for infiltrating other societies, or their ability to use psychic powers and summon daemons or be important for a variety of dark rituals. In the Great Crusade, this modus operandi just isn't available, hence my scepticism.

Note that the Great Crusade isn't actually my forte, though, so perhaps there is something I missed. Since I prefer the "mystified legend" approach in the studio material, my knowledge of the interpretation presented in the novel series (or interpretations - I heard that some novels portray the same event differently) relies entirely on the bits and pieces I pick up from forum discussions amongst fans of that era. It seems obvious, though, that those stories focus entirely on the Astartes. Even Deathwatch would have offered more potential for human characters, at least as per GW's Inquisitor articles. ;)


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#46 Dulahan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:01 PM

Lynata said:

 

And in this case I'm not even talking about the artificially widened gap in FFG's games, but also that the Horus Heresy as a setting just does not have much to offer for normal people - not in the way it is presented in the novels, at least. What sort of normal human "support" classes would people be supposed to play? Remembrancers who get to make rolls on how good their songs about the actual heroes will be?

They may as well focus on the actual "stars" of that era entirely. The designers had their chance for mixed groups with equal usefulness in the past but opted against it - I suppose it may well be a matter of vision, but I just don't see what they could gain from shoehorning normal humans in a game whose narration has so far entirely ommitted them. It'd be kind of like making a Superman RPG where you can also play normal cops, firefighters and mailmen who get to do things alongside Clark Kent. It just doesn't seem very … practical? pensativo

But let's hear your ideas. How exactly would you design a Great Crusade RPG that doesn't feature Marines alone, yet is fun to play for everyone?

 

I don't think you quite got my point.  It's not that Humans should be played alongside Marines and just accept they will suck.  Instead it's that they shouldn't be played alongside each other at all.  Your group is either Astartes OR Regulars.  Whether done with a shared setting book or a shared corebook in  general doesn't matter. 

 

It wouldn't even be the first game ever to have varying tiers like that.  Exalted and Cthulhutech just to name a couple of the biggest named ones.

 

Because outside of mixed groups there is plenty of cool stuff for people to do on either end of the spectrum.  a group of PC Remembrancers could lead to an AMAZING game.  Likewise, so would a squad of Astartes (And with Only War style advancement, the Latter could actually all be in a Tactical Marines squad from the same chapter and still feel distinct without seeming anti-lore in terms of composition or a Rules mistake!).



#47 Lynata

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:05 AM

Dulahan said:

I don't think you quite got my point.
Indeed I did not - thanks for the explanation, I'm not familiar with any games that employ such tiered, separated "campaign styles" in a single book. ;)

That would work, I suppose - at least mechanically. I still think it'd be a weird waste of development resources given that, at least in Black Library's portrayal, there doesn't really seem to be a place for normal humans in that era other than as faceless extras. FFG could probably just invent some stuff again, such as, basically, Only War with the Imperial Army instead of the Imperial Guard, but I'd say that this would work much better as a supplement for Only War. As far as a group of PC Remembrancers is concerned … ouph, a 40k roleplaying game about civilian news reporters and poets? That's certainly novel, but do you believe that such a game would find a lot of fans?


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#48 AtoMaki

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:57 AM

Lynata said:

That would work, I suppose - at least mechanically. I still think it'd be a weird waste of development resources given that, at least in Black Library's portrayal, there doesn't really seem to be a place for normal humans in that era other than as faceless extras

This gave me an idea: what about Space Marines and "above-average normal humans" (example: Ascension characters) in the same party? that sounds plausible…



#49 Robomummy

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:04 AM

I think space marines and normal humans might be a bad idea. Space marines are so far removed from Humanity that they are like demigods to most humans. All but the most jaded humans in the imperium would stand in awe of them for the entire campaign. In contrast Normal Humans barely even register to Astartes, they are so for above humanity that they look down on humans. Combat wise there would be little that a guardsman could do compared to the marine and story wise the marine would basically ignore the humans and quickly leave them behind.


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#50 Face Eater

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:45 AM

I've a few veiws on this whole Horus Heresy as a setting for an RPG. And I realise it's a fan favourite.

Firstly how good is it for making a flexible party with distinct characters? In my view not really. It's a very rare situation that has a two Legions working together and even then it's a temporary affair. And even during that battle it's not likely that they'll have mixed squads. So it's only really going to be a single legion affair with only the differetiation comming from the different specialities we are still not really supposed to be mixing in a single squad. Basically everyones a Deathshroud terminator or no one is.

And the legions are an Army, a single army with orders dictated by their superiors so, although individual squads have great tactical flexibilty that's not going to be more than take that specific objective, it's hardly going to be a lot of freedom for the PC's.

But this is a OW forum I hear you say, if you can play a member of the Imperial Guard then what's the difference between the legions. Good point, but the answer quite simply is scale. The same objective given to a single Legion squad to do in a few hours might be issued to a whole company and take the best part of a week the part the ragtag guardsmen play is massively varied, if they even get the same orders, for example defend this position to a Guard company is basically an excuse for NPC interaction with the rest of the company for most of the mission. For the legion it's basically twiddling thumbs till the actual attack.

Basically Deathwatch is a pretty unique situation where you get a bunch of different chapters and specialties mixing in a squad with the almost unlimited remit of the Inquistion. Without that there are severe limits on a long term campaign.

What about adding humans to mix? Well on one hand, prior to Deification of the Emperor there wasn't as great a divide between a human soldier and an Astartes, at least in most cases on the Imperium side. The great armies towards the Heresy would have mixtures of Astartes and Army troops in most cases and the human comanders would sit around the planning table with the Astartes Generals Leiutenants. But they wouldn't really mix units in combat but might deployed with each other on a battlefield but again, hardly a permantent situation.



#51 Lynata

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:21 AM

AtoMaki said:

This gave me an idea: what about Space Marines and "above-average normal humans" (example: Ascension characters) in the same party? that sounds plausible…
Depending on how it's pulled off in the rules, and what the setting provides as tie-in options, absolutely! But in this case, I feel it'd be problematic. What we've seen in the past couple games were rules that have elevated Space Marines far above normal humans, both to support a more epic and heroic narrative to appeal to their fans, as well as due to certain "heritage" weaknesses in the d100 ruleset, such as the way how characteristics and injuries work. It may also be a case of simple author/designer interpretation and preference; it's hard to say without official word or "designer's notes" on the subject.

To put it bluntly, I'm not sure anymore FFG is actually willing to deliver a ruleset that would support such mixed parties, at least not in a way similar to how GW's Inquisitor game did. And perhaps the majority of (potential) customers even prefers the approach that FFG has taken so far. Think about it - putting Astartes and normal humans on a level where both would be viable character options, even with a focus on combat, would ultimately let Space Marines appear as "weaker" as they are presented in the most popular sources (numerous SM novels), given that they are usually compared to said normal humans. How many Space Marine fans would be willing to accept this, just for an option to have normal people tag along? And given that the Great Crusade as a setting would mostly appeal to Marine fans, thus also rendering them the most likely buyers, this group would arguably also be the likely target audience for an RPG set in this era.

Which brings me to the issue of tie-in options. In the Great Crusade-era, what kind of "above-average normal humans" are there? The Imperial factions of M41 whose members are able to maybe stand up to Space Marines (and thus might qualify as semi-equal comrades to them) do not exist there - in M30 their presence truly dominates the Imperium, and they are doing many of the tasks which are only later filled by the elites of normal humans. The one exception that comes to mind are the SoB-knockoff Sisters of Silence that have been mentioned in one or two books, but from what I've heard they are apparently not allowed to talk - which might feel a bit limiting for a roleplaying game.

I suppose it'd be possible to whip up some special class like an "Imperial Army Veteran" or something, but even then, why would this guy travel with a bunch of Marines and deploy in their battles? (see also Face Eater's post)

It all just seems very … difficult to combine, with many drawbacks and very few advantages. It'd probably be better to just look at the rather popular novels and try to replicate what's in there, kind of like a Deathwatch 2.0. Perhaps the designers can also invent a reason for slightly more variance between squad members - an option might be to make the player characters a Company HQ, with their own NPC Marines and starships, kind of like an Imperial version of the Black Crusade RPG mixed with Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, where the players have to plan and personally lead invasions of entire star systems with the resources provided by their paternal Legion. Maybe FFG could even come up with fluff for a team made up of Marines from different Legions, although I have a feeling that everybody belonging to the same Legion would be okay for the players. Everybody being from the same regiment doesn't seem to be a problem for Only War, at least, and I know that some DW fans are already playing "normal Marine Chapter" campaigns. :)


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previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#52 Adeptus-B

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:05 AM

There's also the fact that the major events of the Horus Heresy are established history, and would not be subject to PC input. So players would have to be either spectators of history, or the GM would risk taking the universe completely off the tracks. -Which some people might like, I suppose (every rpg group plays in their own little parallel universe, after all)- but I would dread hearing from all the bozos posting about how they personally killed the Emperor…



#53 Lynata

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:34 PM

Ah, that's probably the smallest issue, I think. Yes, the major events of the Horus Heresy are fairly established, but you could say the same for "current" 40k right up until Abbadon shows up at the Cadian Gate. In theory, you could already have a Black Crusade campaign where the players go to Terra and kick in the doors to the Imperial Palace, for example.

The timeline in 40k as well as 30k has ample room to insert new events, and FFG could even invent their own playground again like they did already with the Calixis sector or the Jericho Reach. And then we have the cop-out that almost everything we "know" about 40k is just a huge mass of possibilities, anyways, "sanctioning" the many contradictions between the sources (and providing an in-universe explanation for them). As I've heard, even the Horus Heresy novel series itself has books that portray the same events in different ways - a rather clever idea from the authors, considering that this happens in short succession in the same series, whereas elsewhere such differences are likely unintentional.

I'd propose the writers fleshing out some new region of space and then setting up a plot about how the players' Legion is tasked with taking it. The players are then granted a certain amount of Imperial Army units (ground forces and naval assets) as well as command over a company(?) of Marines and then have to lead the Imperial forces to victory.

It'd be a mixture of space opera grand strategy and personal combat, with emphasis on the latter. Spending "Glory" points on recruiting new forces or buying advantages, assigning military forces to several "hotspots" on a map, and then having the players select a battle to personally show up in. The big battles would all be rolled for in the background by the GM using some mass combat ruleset like it already exists in Rogue Trader, but by roleplaying attacks on critical mission objectives that the players have picked themselves (using the intel available), they could add bonus points to their army, thus making victory more likely or softening the blow from a defeat …
Not sure if this can be pulled off in a meaningful way, but this is the angle I'd try it with!


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#54 Radwraith

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 05:28 PM

Your description is actually exactly how the "Flashpoint" sytem in BK is supposed to work! It could certainly work for a HH era game. I really like your Strategic overview idea as well!estrella



#55 sunhawk88

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 07:02 PM

Personally I would want either A.) Eldar RPG, so we can delve more into the mysteries of the universe and the Old One and deal with other aliens that Eldar have contact with or B.) Tau RPG for a more cosmopolitan characters and giving access to a ton of playable aliens



#56 Psion

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:28 AM

Horus Heresy would probably be best served as a cross-game supplement like Ordo Malleus was supposed to be (a thick hard cover book almost as big as a core rule book but covered several of the lines.)  Given how much the Imperium likes change, most of the rules would still be fundimentally the same for Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, Space Marines, and Guardsmen.  Only the names and some of the organizational systems would change.   The main problem I have with the Horus Heresy era is that we already know how it's going to end unless the PCs are allowed some leeway for something like the Dorian Heresy.  Otherwise, the story will end the same way no matter what the players do; the Imperium falls, the Emperor dies, the end.



#57 bloody malth

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:17 PM

I play an interrogator in a Deathwatch game, it works, and I'm having a blast playing a human amongst Marines. I remember the first edition of the Warhammer 40k tabletop, where an inquisitor was tougher than a marine, and I've had a hard time letting go of that ever since.

But I have to admit that Lynata is right, during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, there are no humans that stand with the Astartes. The Inquisition and the Sisters of Battle do not exist yet. I don't think the Officio Assassinorum does either. This is a time of legends, of demi-gods, and even as the Horus Heresy novels shed light on that era, they maintain its epic mystique. There are seemingly no Marines as arrogant or as powerful as those portrayed in that series and unless your last name is The Sigillite, you will not find any humans who come close to the grandeur of the Marines of that period.

I think there is room for a two-tiered system though. In Deathwatch, you start out as a veteran, a full-fledged Marine on the cusp of your prime. This was probably done so that players could jump right in and feel like a Space Marine, akin to a well done action film that starts in media res. A different approach could be used in a hypothetical Horus Heresy game. Why not start as mortal adolescent combatants whose destiny it is to one day don the power armour of the Astartes? You could start as viking tribesman from Fenris, or gangbangers from Nostramo, or humans inducted into the Legion from a conquered planet. I think the ability to mould your humans into the Space Marines they will become could have great appeal.



#58 Lynata

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:51 AM

bloody malth said:

This is a time of legends, of demi-gods, and even as the Horus Heresy novels shed light on that era, they maintain its epic mystique. There are seemingly no Marines as arrogant or as powerful as those portrayed in that series and unless your last name is The Sigillite, you will not find any humans who come close to the grandeur of the Marines of that period.

Granted, it's all a matter of perception and interpretation - personally, I don't take the HH novels as an accurate depiction of what happened (and even the novels intentionally contradict each other) - so that if FFG really wanted, they could easily portray a more gritty Heresy era with heroes from the Imperial Army, or even making up new factions on the spot …

… however, it's just not what the HH fans would expect, and given that the primary clientele for such an RPG would be these same readers of the Heresy novels, it'd be a really weird business decision to disregard them just like that. "Tapping new markets" is a valid idea, but it can really work against you when one manages to scare the hardcore fans away, and I just don't think that the already small RPG market could have any studio take this chance.

bloody malth said:

A different approach could be used in a hypothetical Horus Heresy game. Why not start as mortal adolescent combatants whose destiny it is to one day don the power armour of the Astartes? You could start as viking tribesman from Fenris, or gangbangers from Nostramo, or humans inducted into the Legion from a conquered planet. I think the ability to mould your humans into the Space Marines they will become could have great appeal.

That's a rather clever idea! I do remember reading in the Index Astartes that at least in the case of the Dark Angels, they actually took grown-up humans and made them Astartes. It doesn't take much to speculate on the inability of "modern" Space Marines to recruit anything but children being just a product of a millennial quality decline in the "marinification" process, in that a lower tolerance for recruits is how the Astartes deal with the act of creating new Space Marines having become unreliable and shrouded in techno-mysticism.

The one downside I see is that … well, what exactly would people be supposed to play in their campaigns? A "native campaign" would not have to do much with 40k but instead feel like a game of D&D or Shadowrun, whereas newly inducted Space Marines should logically be subject to an NPC superior who gets to boss them around, given that you probably don't just become a Squad Sergeant right after joining a Chapter Legion.

In a way, I fear it might feel like an artificial delay not dissimilar to Dark Heresy where you're supposed to play the Inquisition … but actually you won't really do so until going Ascension. And how many people would think of some (comparatively) puny natives when talking about a Marine campaign? In this, I feel that Deathwatch did alright in its approach by letting people jump "right into action" as most fans probably expected (there's that e-word again).

On the other hand … you got me thinking: Perhaps there's a middle ground to be found, in that it could be a campaign with lots of time jumps and "phases" that aims to portray a character's entire life within the Legion? The first phase would be training, where the new recruits are presented with a series of challenges and get to form first bonds amongst one another. After gaining a few levels, the game goes WHOOOSH and suddenly you're fast forwarded X years into the future and the characters suddenly find themselves being members of a renowned squad (plus a couple NPCs to fill free slots and provide support) with one of them being the Sergeant. This would be the Deathwatch-like stage, except that instead of hunting aliens your squad is assigned specific goals they have to fulfill on their own in order to help their company achieve its mission objective, usually being deployed in the proximity of NPC squads which you may vox for help or which will vox you for help, presenting optional side-objectives (both would influence the post-mission rewards). Then, the last stage of the game, again X years later, has the players find themselves leading their company, with one of them being the Captain and the others members of his HQ Squad. This stage would open up further strategic gameplay options as outlined in an earlier post.

The bonus: Each of these stages can be skipped, for those players who would like to jump straight into one of the higher tiers. Yet completing a stage on your own would provide substantial bonuses for later gameplay, which would otherwise be replaced by some boring general stuff. Kind of like background packages, just that in order to profit from any epic things you'd have to do them yourself!


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#59 MILLANDSON

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Back around the time of Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, people kept asking if FFG would ever do the Horus Heresy, and the response was that they couldn't cover areas of the setting being covered elsewhere, hence why they had unique sectors, etc, for their lines.

If that still holds, I doubt we'd see anything covering the Horus Heresy era, sorry.

Just thought I'd reiterate this, given the thread turned into "How would you make a Horus Heresy game?". I honestly reckon they'll stick to M41, as with the previous books. I'd quite like books that covered the Eldar and Tau (the former for Rogue Trader, the latter for Deathwatch), but I'm not sure they'd be allowed to make an entire RPG about them, since it'd require a fair amount of the fluff to be made from scratch, considering neither Eldar or Tau have the developed background that GW have given the Imperium.


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#60 TormDK

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:28 AM

I'd like to see an Eldar ruleset, using a cleaned up version of the OW rules. 

The Rogue Trader books seems to show the various Eldar paths quite well, and it would most certainly be a mix of Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy as I see it since Eldar would be mostly using the cloak and daggers approach.






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