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Does FFG hate Martell?


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#1 LFenix

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

So, with the new cycle, we are seeing some usefull new mechanics, those naval enhacements surely give you flexibility.

 

BUT, as most of you probably saw, there are NONE on Martell characters (I have missed 1 of the boxes, none on the other…4?). Someone may argue that Martell has no naval power in the serie. And I would answer that half of the houses don´t ever show more than a couple of boats in the books, wich I have read fully.

 

Now, take this and add the fact that Martell got so bloodyly hammered by restrictions in FEB´s update and I start to think, as the title says, that someone in FFG´s design sector hates Martell.

 

Of course it´s just a joke, but I was wondering if someone has seen recently a pro Martell deck going far in an important tournament, and maybe the list for it. I heard something about a martell-maestres deck, but other than that (and I also heard maestres is better with other houses), it seems like I´m the only one playing Martell.

 

I personally like them a lot (both in the game and in the books), and have 2 decks now, 1 House Dayne-based and the other one with some "when I lose a challenge you lose more than I" events and chars. They are fun to play, but I feel as if they are a bit below my meta´s level, and can´t find better cards to include.

 

Any thoughts?



#2 Deathjester26

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

Damon actually loves Martell.  It's one of his favorite houses.

People have been complaing about Martell for years, so perhaps that is why they are being scaled back a bit.  As a Martell fan, I've got to say my ears are enjoying the rest.



#3 Ire

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:04 PM

LFenix said:

BUT, as most of you probably saw, there are NONE on Martell characters (I have missed 1 of the boxes, none on the other…4?). Someone may argue that Martell has no naval power in the serie. And I would answer that half of the houses don´t ever show more than a couple of boats in the books, wich I have read fully.

Have to disagree here. Martell is the only house which has no naval forces what so ever (appart from the orphans and merchant ships). The house doesn't believe in naval fleets since the time of Nymeria sailing to westeros and uniting the house of sun and spear. She burned all of her fleet down to make it clear to her people that Dorne is now their home. Other houses have had clearly warships and boats in the books, but it has been on the far background for houses whose main strength is not its naval power.
Greyjoy is one of the clear winners, thou most of the fleet is sailing with Victarion in search of dragons ~and conquering the dothraki sea.
Arbor has the second strongest fleet in Westeros (or possibly strongest) which just captured Dragonstone. Thing is their loyalty in the game is usually divided to Lannister and Baratheon so both of those houses could easily get their naval forces from them. 
Lannister and Baratheon have small naval forces now since Cerseis ships got stolen and Stannises fleet of pirates has fled. Both of them on the other hand again have had larger naval forces in the books.
Stark is a though one, but I would say their naval fleet will soon come as a full surprise to Westeros. Earlier in the books King Robb ordered more naval forces to be built in White Harbor. When Davos visits White Harbor we see that Manderly did as he was ordered as Davos sees a great fleet in the harbor.
Targaryen is there currently down with Martell since they haven't had any ships for a long time, they have a captain, but no ships.



#4 WWDrakey

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:50 PM

If I remember correctly there have now been four (reported) Regional victories for Martell - 2 with Long Voyage and 2 with Knights of the Hollow Hill as agendas. Compare that to, say, Baratheon and Greyjoy having 1-2 victories (once again, that I know of), and it doesn't look like the House is really doing all that bad for itself, even with the lack of Naval? 

Whether this has more to do with Naval (and highly conditional high-claim challenges) being overestimated to begin with… is another matter. ;)

As a related note, we have some (not all that I've seen, for example the other two Martell victories were only reported as short comments on agotcards) of the Tourney results collected over at CardgameDB here: http://www.cardgamed...ourney-results/

Any contributions of missing results would be highly appreciated.

As a side note: The variety of field compositions and decks making the cut is pretty staggeringly diverse this year…



#5 dcdennis

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 12:54 AM

Lol who cares about naval? Does anyone even consider it when building a deck? Have you ever actually actively teched against naval in any of your builds? 



#6 WWDrakey

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 01:14 AM

dcdennis said:

Lol who cares about naval? Does anyone even consider it when building a deck? Have you ever actually actively teched against naval in any of your builds? 

Ooh, wait! I actually ran Desolate Passage once just for the comments from a Naval -player, does that count? ;)

Kinda reminds me of the time when people thought Dothraki were going to become extremely competitive, if not outright OP… this was during the middle of the Brotherhood Cycle, I think.



#7 Skowza

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 03:08 PM

Martell is still very competitive.  I think its kind of just dumb luck that they really got hammered by the FAQ:
Orphans - ability was too strong for a 0-cost character
Cyvasse - extremely strong against some Houses/builds, and not in a balanced way
Scourge - I still think it was only restricted b/c they went after all of the "vanilla HoD" Locations
Martell Maesters - just dumb luck that their Refugees are Maesters and so a previously strong build got slammed.

They still have a ton of extremely strong Events, the best repeatable weenie killer in the game (VB), TVB, and of course, TRV himself, even if some of those are restricted.  And since BS isnt out there winning tourneys left and right I don't think the lack of Naval is worrying. 



#8 mdc273

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:07 AM

LFenix said:

So, with the new cycle, we are seeing some usefull new mechanics, those naval enhacements surely give you flexibility.

 

BUT, as most of you probably saw, there are NONE on Martell characters (I have missed 1 of the boxes, none on the other…4?). Someone may argue that Martell has no naval power in the serie. And I would answer that half of the houses don´t ever show more than a couple of boats in the books, wich I have read fully.

 

Now, take this and add the fact that Martell got so bloodyly hammered by restrictions in FEB´s update and I start to think, as the title says, that someone in FFG´s design sector hates Martell.

 

Of course it´s just a joke, but I was wondering if someone has seen recently a pro Martell deck going far in an important tournament, and maybe the list for it. I heard something about a martell-maestres deck, but other than that (and I also heard maestres is better with other houses), it seems like I´m the only one playing Martell.

 

I personally like them a lot (both in the game and in the books), and have 2 decks now, 1 House Dayne-based and the other one with some "when I lose a challenge you lose more than I" events and chars. They are fun to play, but I feel as if they are a bit below my meta´s level, and can´t find better cards to include.

 

Any thoughts?

I think you should take a look at reviews for Chaos in the Old World. I'm happy that AGoT is taking a page out of that book. In Chaos in the Old world, you could easily level this at any given faction. "Why does everyone get good combat units except Tzeentch?" "Why does everyone get more cultists than Khorne?" These are simple and obvious observations and yet you will hear many say that it is one of the most well-balanced, asymetrical games around. AGoT seems to be taking a page from that book and for the better. Rather than have each house be uniquely good at one thing, theme and flavor can be gained instead by detracting things.

Martell isn't particularly strong at Naval, which gives them a pretty cool theme. A player may be like "Yea, that's right. I don't need no stupid boats." And as people indicate, it hasn't yet affected their tournament-worthiness except in a few builds. Even better, these aren't core game mechanics. While being weak in Military, Intrigue, or Power icons can severly hamper a houses ability to win, being weak in a game mechanic that does not directly equate to winning challenges is meaningless. You could just as easily ask "Why doesn't Martell have kill effects like No Quarter and Terminal Schemes?", but I think people would look at you weird if you did.

TL:DR - Martell lacks Naval icons for the same reason they lack direct kill. It's not part of their color wheel (it's not meant to be one of their strengths thematically).



#9 LFenix

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:36 AM

I made some more research after reading the first posts. You might be right there are some wins, but I don´t think there are that many. And looking at the top 5 or top 8 of the regionals I´ve seen, Martell´s are quite marginal tbh.

 

About thematic, I agree Martell should not be strong in Naval. But something… Targa has no ships in the books. They had a few transports once, just like Martell´s merchants, but have none. Stark is suppossed to, but we haven´t seen them show up, so noone can assure anything on that end. And Lannisters have weak fleets now, just as Baratheon. So your statement that Martell is the only house with no naval armys is a bit off. My point is… no enhacemets at all? really? Stark is not a house that takes too much interests in intrigues, but that does not mean they have 0 intrigue. They are just "relatively" weak.

 

And honestly, in this last cycle (is it 4 or 5 chapters already?), I think there is 1 Martell card that might (just might) see game. Maybe 2 if you are starting in the game and don´t have the old cycles. This, no matter how you put it, makes Martell lovers (like myself) start thinking twice about getting the new chapters. Because even though I like to play other houses every now and then, my main house is Martell and so, there is no excitement in getting that new card that looks good enought to give it a try. Martell is simply stuck since the last update. Lots of restricteds, very few decent new cards.

 

Those are my thoughts at least, and I think they are quite understandable and accurate. I thought there would be more people a bit frustrated with the new cycle but maybe it´s just me…



#10 ASoIaFfan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

LFenix said:

I made some more research after reading the first posts. You might be right there are some wins, but I don´t think there are that many. And looking at the top 5 or top 8 of the regionals I´ve seen, Martell´s are quite marginal tbh.

 

About thematic, I agree Martell should not be strong in Naval. But something… Targa has no ships in the books. They had a few transports once, just like Martell´s merchants, but have none. Stark is suppossed to, but we haven´t seen them show up, so noone can assure anything on that end. And Lannisters have weak fleets now, just as Baratheon. So your statement that Martell is the only house with no naval armys is a bit off. My point is… no enhacemets at all? really? Stark is not a house that takes too much interests in intrigues, but that does not mean they have 0 intrigue. They are just "relatively" weak.

 

And honestly, in this last cycle (is it 4 or 5 chapters already?), I think there is 1 Martell card that might (just might) see game. Maybe 2 if you are starting in the game and don´t have the old cycles. This, no matter how you put it, makes Martell lovers (like myself) start thinking twice about getting the new chapters. Because even though I like to play other houses every now and then, my main house is Martell and so, there is no excitement in getting that new card that looks good enought to give it a try. Martell is simply stuck since the last update. Lots of restricteds, very few decent new cards.

 

Those are my thoughts at least, and I think they are quite understandable and accurate. I thought there would be more people a bit frustrated with the new cycle but maybe it´s just me…

It's not just you, LFenix.

I won't go into detail (I've talked about it before and want to leave the dead equine resting in its relative peace), but this was the first cycle since I started playing the game that did not (and still does not) excite me.

I am however looking somewhat forward to the next cycle after reading Nate's article on it. A return to existing themes and mechanics sounds good to me.



#11 Ruvion

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 03:32 PM

ASoIaFfan said:

I am however looking somewhat forward to the next cycle after reading Nate's article on it. A return to existing themes and mechanics sounds good to me.



Hear, hear!



#12 mdc273

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:56 AM

LFenix said:

I made some more research after reading the first posts. You might be right there are some wins, but I don´t think there are that many. And looking at the top 5 or top 8 of the regionals I´ve seen, Martell´s are quite marginal tbh.

 

About thematic, I agree Martell should not be strong in Naval. But something… Targa has no ships in the books. They had a few transports once, just like Martell´s merchants, but have none. Stark is suppossed to, but we haven´t seen them show up, so noone can assure anything on that end. And Lannisters have weak fleets now, just as Baratheon. So your statement that Martell is the only house with no naval armys is a bit off. My point is… no enhacemets at all? really? Stark is not a house that takes too much interests in intrigues, but that does not mean they have 0 intrigue. They are just "relatively" weak.

 

And honestly, in this last cycle (is it 4 or 5 chapters already?), I think there is 1 Martell card that might (just might) see game. Maybe 2 if you are starting in the game and don´t have the old cycles. This, no matter how you put it, makes Martell lovers (like myself) start thinking twice about getting the new chapters. Because even though I like to play other houses every now and then, my main house is Martell and so, there is no excitement in getting that new card that looks good enought to give it a try. Martell is simply stuck since the last update. Lots of restricteds, very few decent new cards.

 

Those are my thoughts at least, and I think they are quite understandable and accurate. I thought there would be more people a bit frustrated with the new cycle but maybe it´s just me…

FUUUUUU FFG Forums! Not posting my post. I'm lazy. Long and short of it:

Stark with a weakness in Intrigue gets owned because it is core to the game. Martell weak in [Naval] can't play Black Sails and might have issues with Battle for Shield Island. These are a little different.

Now the lack of good Martell cards does suck, but it has nothing to do with the fact that they don't have any [Naval] cards. A good card is a good card whether or not it has a tiny ship on it. Same is true of bad cards.



#13 Penfold

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

I just don't understand some people.

Martell has the BEST defense against Naval in the game, the ability to remove the icon it is on and there by not just nullify its Naval, but the ability to participate in that challenge at all, and you are complaining because they don't also have a strong enough offense in NAval?

No sympathy for you at all dude. None.

As to MArtell not getting good cards..is this a fact, or is it because you keep trying to find a single card to slot into a preexisting deck rather than evaluate the cards as a whole in regards to the entire card pool only to discover that perhaps they have recently gotten some cards that are good in a build different than the one you are using?

The whole point of the most recent FAQ was to shake up the metagame and force people to question their assumptions and give new cards and builds a try. If you simply refuse to do so it is no surprise you are flagging behind your meta mates. In the Game of Cards, you adapt or you die.



#14 Inquisition

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:04 AM

Penfold said:

I just don't understand some people.

Martell has the BEST defense against Naval in the game, the ability to remove the icon it is on and there by not just nullify its Naval, but the ability to participate in that challenge at all, and you are complaining because they don't also have a strong enough offense in NAval?

No sympathy for you at all dude. None.

As to MArtell not getting good cards..is this a fact, or is it because you keep trying to find a single card to slot into a preexisting deck rather than evaluate the cards as a whole in regards to the entire card pool only to discover that perhaps they have recently gotten some cards that are good in a build different than the one you are using?

The whole point of the most recent FAQ was to shake up the metagame and force people to question their assumptions and give new cards and builds a try. If you simply refuse to do so it is no surprise you are flagging behind your meta mates. In the Game of Cards, you adapt or you die.

 

Aaaand we're done here. +1 internets to you sir.



#15 Wolfbrother

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:04 AM

I currently have a great martell deck that while not teir 1 (still has a rough battle against bara rush and greyjoy) but that is so unique and circumvents a lot of the problems i face in my meta has me very excited for the  next regional. although truthfully i havent gotten anything helpful from the last 4 packs….. so i am running an unconventiona deckl, using different cards and right inline with FFG's intents some stand by's for martell are out and neutral and other cards are in. even still with all this no love in the most recent sets lol. i'm not too upset. Full disclosure i was PISSED and HURT about UUU (unbowed,unbent.unbroken) being the insanely underplayable and underpowered house words card, but i've adapted and am presently really making a showing against my meta mates, even with a third teir house : )



#16 Wolfbrother

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:08 AM

one caveot, i am running lady nym's guard. in the agenda heavy meta its just too good not to run



#17 tibs3688

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:50 AM

Lack of naval icons really doesn't matter.  Naval itself hardly matters from what I can see.  It's just a keyword, more or less, and not even as strong as stealth or renown imo.  Black sails doesn't seem like much of a threat at this point either.

As the above poster indicated Martell did get Lady Nym's Guard which is a fantastic beatstick.  The stealth is what does it.  4 for 7 is nice already, but even better when you consider it can probably win any challenge you send it to on both offense OR defense since it can't be stealthed.  That's even better than some if not all of the fleets as they can only avoid stealth on one icon.  I do agree that Martell's cards this cycle have been weak overall but tbh it seems like a weak cycle in general, I haven't seen a lot of cards from it being played out of any of the houses.  People have been flipping out over Greyjoy support this cycle but I really don't see it…. even Victarion doesn't impress me as he's 4 for 3 with no keywords or immunities (i.e. control bait).  I wouldn't think much of UUU either as none of the other house word cards were particularly impressive.

I wouldn't worry.






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